City Council and Planning Commission 4-15-25

[0:00:01] And I will then ask Luke Urick to please call the planning commission in U to order. Please Luke morning. Um go ahead and call our planning commission meeting to order. It is 8:30 on the dot. Thank you. Our first um item, this is a joint meeting agenda, so it involves both the city council as well as the planning commission. And we're here today to talk about um the cultural uh district overlay. And so the first item on the agenda is the first reading and public hearing of ordinances for amendments to the following sections of chapter 12. Planning and development exhibit A zoning ordinance article 3 use regulations one section 311 cultural district overlay zone 2 section 313 use table and section 304 the commercial district intent statements. And today, as usual, we have Aaron Bonet leading us in this conversation. Aaron, you are officially on. Thank you, Mayor. I'm going to get to our slides real quickly. And thank you, chairman. Thank you, planning commissioners and city council. And thank you, citizens, for being here this morning to talk about the cultural dis uh cultural overlay district zone uh as well as another item. So, this here is the cultural district expansion. Currently, we have a small area uh around the Fine Arts Museum of St. Angelo that borders Oak Streets. Um and and right in that area, this would be an expansion that you can see on the red outline if you're able to see one of the monitors or if you have one of the maps in front of you. Um we'll start over on the west side where it goes starts at the bridge uh going across the north Koncho River at Coenheim going south to Highland which is one block south of

[0:02:06] Washington where the street light is at on Washington. Then you're going to turn east go all the way down Highland uh all the way to Rust Street which is right behind uh Fort Koncho Elementary. Then you'll turn north going up Rust Street to the railroad tracks where it goes under the railroad track overpass and turns into Allen Street. And then you see it turns back a little bit to the north there at uh the Rio Koncho uh hotel back to the river and then back down to Coenheim. So you see this is also in district three, Mr. Harry Thomas and in district five Karen Hessie Smith. The borderline between those is Coenheim. Uh going um north to the west is district three or excuse me to the west is district 5 and to the uh east is district three. Both neighborhoods also are represented by that break in the in the map of Fort Contro to the east and Santaorita neighborhood to the west. Here is a zoning which will become important uh through our discussion. Um each one of the uh planning commission and city council members should have one of these maps in front of you as well. So that will become important. You can see there's a lot of different colors in there. So a lot of different uses. And the cultural district um the cultural district overlay zoning is a zoning primarily and then we're bringing in a design district uh with it. And so it is to help clean up this zoning to help revitalize the cultural area of our community. Um it is to help streamline and coordinate some zonings that uh work together more in harmony than some of our heavier uses. Uh our heavier uses don't naturally fit uh with some of our uh cultural uses in that area. So we'll come back to this slide a couple of times. Uh so just be aware that uh this is an important piece that we have. would you uh go through each of those zonings and describe the CN versus the CO all of that so that publicly we're u talking about what the zoning is

[0:04:11] currently per Yes ma'am so I'm going to start with the residential so the lightest color yellow which is up here on Baker Street and by the railroad up to Bird Street that is RS1 the only use there currently is single family residential RS2 too. If you look over here on the left side of the screen, uh there's kind of a large uh mass over there between Avenue A uh and Avenue D uh to an alleyway there uh between Coenheim and just not quite to Irving. That is RS2. So, it would allow single family residential and two family residential like duplexes. Um or it doesn't have to be a duplex structure. It could be a two different residences on that house even if they're detached. The next zoning district that's residential is the orange. That's low-rise multif family residential. That is a very flexible zoning district. Um it allows single family, two family, town uh town homes, twin homes. Um and then low-rise multifamily, so multiple structures per lot, more than two. The one thing that I'll mention about RM1 is those districts, that is where it starts to allow short-term rentals by right. RS1 and RS2, they are not allowed by right. They must have a conditional use for short-term rental. Now, we'll move to some of the commercial and industrial uses. And so, the blue on the map is light manufacturing. That's where you are actually manufacturing goods and wholesale items uh and sending them out uh shipping them out. Uh and as you can see with our railroad through there um that was a great idea in the past, but as we've moved on and our rail port continues to be built on the the north portion of our town, less and less spots here need to be light manufacturing. And if we're also thinking about those heavy uses for a cultural uh overlay zoning, the lower the uses, the more congruent

[0:06:16] they are throughout the entire area. So you can see that kind of uh stripe through there that has the light blue. The next one I'll go to is the darker purple, which is CGCH. So that's general commercial, heavy commercial. in our 200 uh3 and our 2000 zoning ordinance. At that time, the city council said we should be getting rid of those dual zonings. Our opportunity is now to get rid of that dual zoning by alleviating the heavy commercial. And so heavy commercial are items like um I guess the most common one would be vehicle repair shops that are repairing very heavy vehicles or selling of heavy truck sales. Um, the vehicle repair shops are things that you would actually drop your vehicle off for. That's not like a a break or an oil change, but you drop your vehicle off for something that may stay there two or three days to be repaired. And so, you can see along Irving, there's a major portion of that on either side. And then just on the other side of the railroad, uh, along Chadburn Street, there is some areas there with CGCH. So those areas uh we would take out the heavy commercial for uh is our goal. Now general commercial is a little bit lighter pink. There's not very much of that in there. There's a little spot over there where um uh one of the banks is at uh right along the river on the north um west side. General is what we see in our uh along Sherwood Way um along um Sunset. those areas that have our general retail stores, um, goods and services that people come and buy, not wholesale, that you come and purchase them for your family and take them back to your home and use them in different ways. Neighborhood commercial is a little bit lighter pink. It's very hard to tell in there, but a little bit lighter pink in there. And you can see between uh the uh Coenheim and Abe Street there's kind of a a patch of different work patchwork of colors in there. But neighborhood commercial are low use low intensity low square footage uses that also include retail sales and

[0:08:22] services. They would not include vape shops or tobacco stores, things like that. But they would allow for a small retail or a tax office or a photography studio or maybe an artist in residence that would be there uh in the neighborhood commercial. And then the OC is office commercial and that again is like your tax offices um could be in this case um over there is an engineering firm that they're an office and they come in and you do business at at the office, things like that. The one item that you don't see anything of that we're changing to is allowing office warehouse. Office warehouse allows the warehousing of goods and shipping those goods to different places or or keeping them there. But office warehouse also allows for things that we have always um utilized them for um contractor yards because you have a small office for the contractor. they do their business there, but then they have a warehouse or a yard that allows more outdoor storage. We're going to be allowing those uh um that type of use in this area. So, that's that's the colors that we have there today. Um you notice the one thing I will mention is that there is a planned development over the fort. Um our goal is actually with this is to remove that planned development and allow their type of developments by right so that they don't have to come and check in. They are a his national historic site. They have very strict rules of what they can and can't do. They don't need another process for us to tell them what they can and can't do. We know what they're wanting to do. Um and this would alleviate one of their processes to go through on the city government side. I'm going to stop for a minute. Is anyone on the planning commission do um there now would be a time to ask about the current zoning that he just went through if there's any concerns or issues or confusion about what current zoning is. I should say this, Luke, let me ask my council first and then you or you go first and then we'll go first. So, open

[0:10:25] up the floor for any comments concerning the zoning right now. Well, I think if you had any questions about zoning, you could pretty much cover uh every possible option in this area. So, um I think it does make a lot of sense to um have some consistency been developed over a very long period of time and obviously things have changed with the use of the railroad and the types of uses along that area. um as well as the single family or residential areas that have been built out. So, I mean, if anybody has any questions about, you know, more specifically on like the dual zoning that Aaron mentioned with CGCH or the light manufacturing, um let's make sure that everybody's clear on what uses those involve and potentially what they could be used for. And that's I think the important thing to keep in mind too is that if they're not currently being used for that, but they do have that more intense zoning, um they could be used for that in the future. And so I think that's really the idea um in trying to align this area with the the vision plan and to be sort of uh compatible with downtown and you know driving more tourism and um you know I think it's just important to understand what uh what is available there today and what could be done and you know the effect that this would have on those areas. You guys got any questions? I think now's a good time to pick Aaron's brain. All right, I'm going to ask the same thing of council. Um, are there any questions about the existing zoning in any particular area here or needs uh further clarification to understand the

[0:12:28] zoning? If so, let me know. No. All right. Proceed. Thank you, ma'am. Oh, Larry, sorry. Stop, sir, Larry. Some of the questions I asked before the meeting, just clarification. Some folks considered this somewhat hasty, but essentially you've said that this has been decades. Well, I think the the city of St. Angelo has wanted to protect this area and has identified this area through many plans. And there I've got a slide on that as being a culturally and and heritage specific area that we should be protecting. I know at least for over a decade there have been discussions of how to do that the proper way. This committee that put together this plan has spent 11 months in process with multiple agencies and citizens, members of planning commission, members of city council to bring this plan forward. We've had two meetings at the development task force with this discussion. We've had two town halls on this discussion and we also had a a brief discussion on this at a prior city council meeting to bring it forward to today. As I also mentioned uh at a call yesterday uh suggesting that the area should have been moved southward from there meaning ex creating a larger scope. Yes, ma'am. And what would that be? The I guess the question would be outside of that red area, are there other heritage items, historical items, cultural items that we would need to be protecting in the neighborhood? I'm not sure today we would be able to ex expand what we are looking at based on our notifications. We there might be the option if if the groups concede of all right, we could shrink it. I think that's allowable, but I don't think today we could expand it. Thank you. That expansion had been talked about some years ago and um at that point in time people felt it was

[0:14:33] too big of a district and that we needed to tighten the borders, make it a little more concise. And so we've gone through that conversation before. Go ahead. So next is our vision plan. Again, the yellow areas are our kind of vision to be residential. The purple areas are like a downtown area. The green areas are uh parks and open spaces. The blue area is civic, which is our Fort Concho area. And then you can see some of the commercial areas that are more red and pink. And then you have a small little industrial area that's down here on the bottom right. Uh and the thought process when the comprehensive plan was done in 2003 is they thought along the river where the water treatment area is that that might change over time. Uh what we are learning today and other areas um around town is that those areas are actually highly desirable for neighborhoods uh and continue to be neighborhoods as well as that being right across from Fort Koncho Elementary. Uh and so doing the cultural district overlay zone in this area is compatible with the vision plan that was created in 2003 and as we move forward we believe it will continue to stay compatible for this area. So here's our purpose for zoning ordinance of why we bring zonings forward. Um promote beneficial and appropriate development of all land and most desirable use of land in accordance with a well-considered plan. Protect character and establish pattern of desired development in each area. Prevent or minimize land use incompatibilities and conflicts among different land uses. Maintain property values by stabilizing expectations and ensuring predictability in development. Established process that effectively and fairly applies the regulations and standards of zoning ordinance and respects rights of property owners and interests of citizens. Would you go back over those again? Very important. They are very important. These are in our act to go slow. Yes, ma'am. Very specific. Very specific. So the first one promote beneficial and

[0:16:37] appropriate development of all land and most desirable use of land in accordance with a well-considered plan. The second one is protect character and establish pattern of desirable development in each area. The third is prevent or minimize land use incompatibilities and conflicts among different land uses. Four is maintain property values by stabilizing expectations and ensuring predictability in development. And five, establish process that effectively and fairly applies regulations and standards of zoning ordinance and respects rights of property owners and interests of citizens. And so those do come directly from our zoning ordinance. Um they've been there since um 2000. Uh and that is the threshold that we make decisions on our zoning ordinance for our community. Any questions? Any concerns from planning council? I think um I just like to point out you know number three in the zoning ordinance purpose um pretty uh poignant in this particular case it is prevent or minimize land use incompatibilities and conflicts among different land uses. Obviously, when you have basically every form of zoning in one small area, there's constantly incompatibilities between the the neighbors. Um, and then secondly, I think it's also important to keep in mind number five, um, specifically to respect the rights of property owners and the interests of the citizen. Um I think that's what we just need to keep in mind as we go forward with liberating this today. Yeah, I think it's important u to um repeat what Luke said and that is to protect landowners rights and to preserve as well. We have a tremendous asset called the Koncho River in St. Angelo. It's one of the greatest assets

[0:18:40] that separates us from many communities across the state of Texas. And everyone who visits St. Angel comments on how fabulous the Koncho River is and the development north of the Concho River. And yet, if you cross the bridge and come to the south side of the Concho River, what you see is just a lot of stuff. There's no vision that's laid out. There's no concept that is obvious. And you don't want to look back and regret not making a decision to protect and preserve one of our greatest assets and that is the Koncho River. We need to be uh aware of the value of that and make sure that generations forward don't look at us and go why didn't you do it? Why did you allow that? We can't go back. That you can't go back. Once you allow it to happen, you can't go back. And so that's a key element here. We want to protect and preserve and make sure we understand the importance of our number one asset and that's the Koncho River and the lands north and south of the Koncho River. Yes ma'am. So our purpose of this specific thing coming across is to prevent or minimize land incompatibilities, maintain property value by stabilizing expectations, ensuring predictability, and establishing that process that is effectively and fairly applies regulations and standards of zoning ordinance and respect rights of property owners and and interests of citizens. And I'll say that last one is a balance because you have individual property owners and they may own multiple properties, but you're talking about maybe one. And then you have the citizens as a whole group and what is it that our citizens need in our community? Uh what are those things that they want to have in our community to make it a good thriving community? And that is a balance to play. Um when you when you're talking about zoning, you want to talk about short-term rentals which you brought up earlier just to clarify. So, the proposal that we have today, and

[0:20:44] we'll we can talk a little bit more in depth about u some residential areas would allow short-term rentals by right in the district. Now, if we choose to do something different in a couple of our residential areas, it would still restrict short-term rentals by right in those residential areas that they would have to go and get a conditional use at planning commission. And the biggest thing that they have to be 500 feet from another short-term rental. And one thing that I will will go back and if you remember where Fort Concho Elementary is, it always has a 500 foot buffer around whether you're commercial, residential, but it has a 500 foot buffer around it for short-term rentals, no matter what. And so that bottom uh southwest southeast corner has got a 500 foot buffer around it for short-term rentals. So, so again the timeline, um, again, all the way back in 1990 when I was a senior in high school, St. Angelo was thinking about this. They did a river corridor master plan. I'm 52 today, so that's been a few days. Um, 1992, the Rudat, St. Angelo connecting the p the past to the future. Very poignant sentence in there. St. Angelo connecting the past to the future. and it called out these four items to happen uh to make make those connections across the river to our downtown to our historic downtown. Um the St. Angelo Museum of Fine Arts and Education Center, Celebration Bridge, Fort Koncho, Santa Fe Railroad Depot. We also have the PO. We have the historic swimming pool structure. We also have the um state's number one welcome center in this area. Uh, and so those are all important things. It also came up again in our 2003 St. Angelo comprehensive plan of how to make connections south of the river to downtown as well as our uh updated strategic plan in 2009. Did you point out the river stage? I might have missed that. I did not, but

[0:22:45] you're correct, mayor. the the river stage is also a a key asset in that area um that is so highly needed in our in our downtown to provide some entertainment districts and things like that. So again, we're trying to do the protection of heritage landmark spaces for all of our our cultures, backgrounds, and community to share with the world for today and future generations. Create a zoning area with mixed use and infill capabilities while emphasizing civic pride through small business, housing, and community. Allows growth and regrowth in an area designated to celebrate history, cultures, art, and nature, which welcomes visitors while stimulating neighborhood the neighborhood economy. We believe all of these things are part of this plan is looking at small businesses, looking at our small neighborhood clusters in there and how do we enhance them? How do we allow the arts and cultures to continue to celebrate uh our history and our heritage in these areas uh from all walks of life. We know that the Koncho River has had humanity for thousands of years and um we have been a very important place in humanity for thousands of years and we can't let that be missed and we need to protect those areas. So the zoning you see the current zoning up there at the top. We went through all of those which is kind of ridiculous isn't it? There's a there's a lot of options page of letters in this area. So, we're looking at bringing those down to allow general commercial, neighborhood commercial, office warehouse, office commercial, the RS1, RS2, RS3, RM1, and RM2, which is all the residential offerings we have. However, there is a thought to provide some higher protection for our residential, particularly the area that is RS2 and RS1. And I'll go find the difference between RS1 and RS2. Yes, mayor. The difference is RS1 is single

[0:24:49] family residential. That's all that can be built there. No accessory dwelling units, no apartments, nothing like that. RS2 allows two family. So you could have two structures, you could have a duplex, you could have an assess dwelling unit. And I'm not sure if this will work on here, but right here, this area, Baker Street, this is RS1. And this area right here is RS2. Now, you can see there's a little spot here that's RS2 and some pockets in through here that are RS2. Um, if we are thinking that we would want to protect this neighborhood and this neighborhood right there, we could say we would not allow any commercial uses in those areas. I believe this area between Cenheim and Abe, they've already got those commercial uses happening. So, I don't know that we need to add another protection because those probably over the next 10 to 20 years will change to commercial entities over time. Here you have a lot of uh more heavy uses and some warehousing. I'm not sure that this little square is actually functioning as residential. It might be, but I'm not sure although it's RS2, is it worth protecting a little bit further or not? Um, but I can see and we do have uh I would say some folks in the in the community that would like to protect these areas and I'm just offering that as an option. I will go back to this slide that the RS2 and RS1 zoned properties that we would allow no commercial development. They would still be within the cultural district overlay zone, but those properties that are zoned RS2 and RS1, we would say they couldn't have neighborhood commercial, general commercial, warehousing, anything like that. So, we're protecting homeowners. That would be that is yes, that is an option. If that is an option y'all would like to take forward, um that certainly can be an option of this

[0:26:52] and we can write that in that those areas and we would add a couple of maps to make sure that we've got the right properties in there um as we adopt the ordinance at the next meeting. Yes, Tom. I'm Harry. Since most of this cultural district is in district three, I'm going to make a suggestion to the planning commission that they strongly look at this particular option when they consider this. Uh I think there is enough people in the audience, many of them will probably come for public comment that are concerned about the residential areas and being taken over by commercial entities. So from my perspective, I'd like to offer that as as strong option for the planning commission. Talk to me about the protections for residential. That's inclusive here. So what would be inclusive here is that they would not be able to get commercial to move into those areas. They'd stay residential. Again, the RS2 could still develop as two family residential if they chose to. RS1 would continue to develop as RS1 residential. In the future, if some of those property owners wanted to change their zoning, they would be able to be compatible with the cultural district overlay zone and change their zoning. It would not be spot zoning. some of the the downsides, and I'm not sure these are big downsides, but we don't have current zoning other than central business and the cultural district that we're looking to adopt that would allow a a habitable structure by a resident and a commercial venture. So, if you were maybe an artist in residence, you couldn't stay in the back of the residence and have a studio in the front. if you were a photographer, you couldn't use your yard as a photography studio and still live in the house. And so those were some of the things we were thinking of when we were doing this. But we also recognize that doesn't really cap what other commercial ventures could

[0:28:58] come in there. And so that that's the the challenge and the balance. And so maybe we're just not quite ready for that. And those that want to do that, they would find one of these properties that's outside of that area. They could still um we would allow residential living in a commercial structure. There may have to be some building code separation, but there's ways to do that and then have the commercial entity at the front, the outdoor, the whatever it may be. Uh we do that in our central business district. Uh we're hoping to have more and more of that come through uh so that we can continue to have people in our downtown and our cultural areas throughout the week and on the weekends to help keep our community strong. So, if I want to um cut hair, if I choose to do that, I can't do that in the home that I live in currently. No, that is not a that's not an allowable home occupation at this time. If I want to do somebody's income tax since today's tax day, I'm not allowed to allow someone into my home to do their taxes. That's that's correct. Under our current zoning ordinance, that's not allowed today. And the proposal today does not does not allow for that. The proposal as presented. The proposal today would allow for that except if we adopt the idea of the RS1 and the RS2. I don't want any accepts. I want it black and white. What does it say? Well, today our proposal from from staff in the committee is that the entire district would be cultural district and allow multiple uses. from Councilman Thomas' suggestion to planning commission is these areas here that we would roll back commercial, which means no no uh filing your property uh your taxes with somebody that lives there. Uh not a photography studio, not an art studio, only residential in But doesn't church photography already have an office there in a building? They're in this little pink area, tiny little area, right? Yes, ma'am. I checked that. So

[0:31:03] there is these uses abuing residential. Now um and had there been any complaints from those citizens that uh have residents right next to those businesses? I did not check that specifically. So I don't know that I can give a confident answer on that. I know in this area over here um we we have not received complaints in this area over here. Um that's between Coenheim and Abe which is a little higher higher traffic higher intensity. Um but that's a good question. Um I I just don't know that answer. I did not look into that. Other qu Tom E Tom E. Erin, I hope this isn't chasing a rabbit, but it just the thought just flew into my mind. We're currently in uh process of updating a housing study. Yes. You mentioned infill as a part of does this as to what's proposed. Does it allow the flexibility depending upon because we're this is coming for a final vote in two weeks. Does as proposed today, does this give the flexibility that might be needed in this area to do infill if appropriate in any of these areas? There's already infill going on, Tommy, a lot of it. So, where there's empty lots, um there's a couple of builders who are picking up those lots and doing homes in that area. So the greatest growth in terms of new development in this district right now happens to be new residential housing. So yes, I would say that the as proposed because we are proposing some development um rules that would shrink the size of some lots because there are some lots that don't meet our standard.

[0:33:06] Uh that would allow some more building and we would allow it to be residential. Um, and so maybe the structures a little smaller and the lot's a little smaller. But there there is a need for those structure types. And I think in this area that's a desirable thing u because you're close to a lot of amenities. Um whether you're getting close to my age and want a walkable area or if you're younger and just starting out, there's a lot of things to do down here in the cultural area and the downtown. Well, I think we're starting to see across not only St. Angelo, but the state, maybe even the nation things, you use the word shrinking, but lot sizes, um, sizes of dwellings, um, to housing is a huge need. Yes. In the nation as well as the state as well as St. Angelo. Yes. So to do something that would I'll say inhibit that kind of growth to me would not be wise just because of what what appears to be trending. So u thank you for for for the response. Well you said another word that's really important is connectivity and one of the most important parts about this area is the connectivity to the north side of the river and the development that could happen on the south side of the river. We know that there's some key properties that are owned that will in some time frame be developed into um commercial properties or residential properties. And that can change the dynamics and the energy and the interest level and the development area of this particular district that we're talking about. Yes, ma'am. We want to make sure we understand the big pieces of land that exist there, what's potentially going to be developed there, and make sure this is cohesive with what we think's going to happen so we don't have to property by property come back and reszone it. Right? And I think that goes back to some of our purpose statements

[0:35:08] about predictability. I think developers that are looking into our city, whether they're local or outside of our city, they want to know the rules. They want to follow them, but they want it predictable. They don't want them to change in a few months. Uh they want it very predictable so they can understand what they need to do. They can look at their proforma and say, "Okay, this is going to this is going to work." And so I think anything we can do as a city to help foster those things, the better off we will be in the future. And that was the Rudet plan to begin with, right? Yes, ma'am. Can we go a little bit more about Sorry. Sorry. Jump back to the page. You're just on this one here, sir. Yes. Uh, so higher protections for residential only allow RM1 uses in current RS2 and RS1 zone properties and no commercial development. Can you expand I guess so everybody understand what's allow what's allowed in RM1 and what would I guess what the increased in intensity that's allowed over and above what's currently allowed in those residential areas. Okay. again RS1 and RS2 because it's RS2 is not listed on here. So you got to go back through that. Yeah. So the RM1, the only reason I listed it here is that it would allow short-term rentals by right in the RS1 and the RS2 areas. The structure types are very similar. They're still going to allow either a single family residence or a two family residence. The RS3, which RM1 also allows, is really town home and twin home. In infill, those usually don't work very well because you've already got established property structures, and there's property line challenges, setback challenges. And so really, you're looking at housing structure type being a single family house, being a two h structures on a property, or a duplex, an accessory dwelling unit, uh something like that. the RM1, the reason to do it at RM1 would allow the short-term

[0:37:11] rentals by right in those areas. But if again another layer of protection for those areas, say, "Okay, no, we're not doing RM1. We would only do RS1 and RS2." And that would put the 500 foot buffer around any short-term rental that were in those districts. So, it would limit the number of short-term rentals. And basically, you just exclude any commercial use of of property in that area. Yes, sir. Like the mayor mentioned, correct? Salon or whatever. Correct. It would it would not be a neighborhood commercial. It would not be a general commercial office commercial allowable zone. So really the only change would be the requirements around STRs and that Yes sir. So be very specific in terms of what this would change in terms of zoning. Will this change zoning for anybody down the road? As I believe as I believe we're leaning towards with the RS1 and the RS2, they would not have a zone change. They would stay their zoning being RS1 and RS2. They would just simply be within the design district boundaries and they would continue to operate as long as they chose to. And if they chose to make a change in the future, that would be those property owners or owner to do that. Okay, is that clear? Okay, so here's some of those new development standards. Again, um commercial, there are some of the smaller lots. Even in the commercially areas that are that are vacant, um we would allow a smaller lot size and a minimum more a smaller minimum lot size. Right now, you have to have 6,000 square feet to develop commercially. We know some of our small commercial folks um need smaller than that. They don't need that much space. Excuse me. But what describe what would go on a smaller

[0:39:16] space like that? I I could see in the commercial area. So, if someone wanted to do a uh pottery studio and they the back of their house is actually where they do the pottery and maybe do some pottery classes and then they have a display area in the front and you're only needing 1,500 square feet or 2,000 square feet. You don't need a big lot to build that out and that would fit perfectly into this cultural district overlay. Yes, it would. And if you're looking to locate those types of amenities within our cultural district, I think you're drawing in the same crowd that's looking at those historic pieces, those heritage pieces, those art and culture pieces, so they're willing to go and window shop or go into a store and check things out. On the residential side, um we stay pretty much with the same except that we are um our current standard lot is 5,000 square feet, which is 50 by 100. We did notice some of those lots that are zoned RS1 and RS2 are smaller than that and so we allowed a smaller lot size so they don't have to go through a ZBA process. Um we maintain the setbacks that we currently have for residential except for the rear yard setback. We made it five feet. Uh and if you look at a lot of the structures in those areas particularly where commercial comes up that's where those those setbacks are at zero feet now. And so we didn't think five feet was unreasonable because it still gives the fire separation needed by fire code. Details and restrictions. Again, I think we've talked about this first one that in the RS1 and RS2, we would not allow the short-term rentals by right. They'd have to go through a conditional use. Everywhere else would have the short-term rentals by right, which they currently do today based on their zoning. Um, we would allow artisan manufacturing by by right, that's a special category in our zoning ordinance and we would allow that by right in those commercial areas. The outdoor storage limit uh to 30% of the property and that's really for our light

[0:41:19] manufacturing heavy commercial because right now they have unlimited outdoor storage. It would only impact if they made some type of change in the future. they chose to add to their building or do something different that was a change of occupancy, then it would change. Our general commercial is actually capped at 20%. So, we're actually giving a little bit more uh than what we do in our general commercial. And a lot of that has to do with we're trying to pro provide an area that if people want to display things that um for sale, that might be an option down in in this part of town. So, the art community art community. Yes, ma'am. A cultural district of interest. And how would that compare to go back to your other screen? So, no. Oh, sorry, ma'am. That screen. So, based off of the rest of the city, how does this compare again for minimum lot size, minimum lot width, minimum lot depth, these numbers compared to traditional housing, residential? This allows a a smaller lot size, but maybe more structure fitting on that lot size. Um, it also allows for a structure that can fit the needs as opposed to finding only something that's 5,000 square feet, which then triggers some other things to be done by codes. the smaller structures are easier to build, easier to maintain, um, and are able to move forward in a more simple fashion through the permitting process if you're building new or even renovating under the existing building code. We believe the residential, uh, setbacks are equivalent to what we have now, the 5yard setbacks. Um, most of those structures in that part of town are older structures and they're closer to the front setback than our normal what we would call our suburban neighborhoods that are 25 ft back. We're also looking at this would as I Luke alluded to is

[0:43:24] that this would add a little more density in the area potentially if those property owners wanted that. um if they wanted to have a a mother-in-law suite or if they wanted to have something else that they could um rent out uh to another person and they would be able to rent out. I also think in a cultural district overlay, why would you want heavy more density? That would be confusing. Why? You want more people. You want more traffic. You want people to go and see those amenities and why it makes St. Angelo unique and special. why we care about our culture, our art, our historical features that we have. And but they could live there, but they couldn't be an artisan. That that would be that would be in those two areas. That would be the challenge for them. Yes, ma'am. Excuse me. So, then we have this the sign specific uh this mirrors our sign ordinance. um signs, billboards and signs over 75 um square feet are are regulated. Um basically you can't have a sign over 75 and 75 square feet and billboards are not allowed in the district. Uh inter what happens to one that's already there? It becomes non-conforming and then what happens? It stays until it potentially is gone in the future by some natural cause um or disaster or something of that nature. It it stays as long as it is a safe, viable structure. We we have a hard time removing those just by changing the zoning district on them. They have some legal rights to keep that structure there. And we do have some clauses in our uh zoning ordinance for those that become minimally damaged and how they could go through to get them repaired properly. So, one of the reasons why you want an overlay is to protect ourselves from these billboards being put up in a

[0:45:25] historic district. Without the historic overlay or the cultural district overlay, what could happen happened already. Yes, ma'am. Do we know how many billboards are in this area by chance? I think I can think of one. I believe I know of I believe two total. Okay. There are some that folks might perceive as a billboard, but it's actually under the size limit for a billboard. They're still large signs. They pro they are bigger than the 75 square feet. Um but they're also not a billboard. Are those mostly on the Conenheim Abe locations? They're actually south of this district. The ones that I'm thinking of are on Chadburn and Oaks that run through the the heart of this district. So, no billboards. That's as proposed except they're already there. Yes, ma'am. Um, another specific restriction was interotal containers and we talked with folks um that on the residential use properties they would not be allowed. That was a concern by residents. Uh there was also concern by commercial properties that they would need them for for storage um for security uh for other reasons. And so we came up with that if you're a commercial property or use you would allow be allowed to have one. But there are some screening um options being a fence with a minimum six foot of height. That's an opaque fence. Landscaping that's large enough to cover 60% of the vertical height of the container and 80% of the horizontal width of the container or a full mural u covering the visible side of the container from the ride ofway. It's really to visually protect the district of, okay, here's just a big metal box sitting there. While we understand the needs for commercial properties and security and and storage, we also know that we're moving towards a more visually appealing district for our

[0:47:27] citizens and our visitors. Um, and we think this is a low threshold to meet to be able to do that. So, go back up to item three, outdoor storage limited to 30% of the property. Does that require uh fencing? Yes, if it uh that would require fencing within our ordinance, it would only require opaque fencing when they make a change. And so, currently, if they're still operating, they don't make a change, it wouldn't require opaque fencing today. But if they chose to add to their structure, change the use of their property, we would require opaque fencing at that time. We encourage it because those again could be pallets for artists to do different things on some of that fencing to help celebrate the area. Mayor, yes. Aaron, the topic we had a lot of discussion on two weeks ago, um, which will come back at some point for those RS1, RS2 districts, um, and somebody either, let's say, needed or wanted a carport, it would that be allowed in this area? That's carports. Sorry. Sorry. I I believe this is in the open structure overlay uh as it is one of our older neighborhood areas. I would double check that. If you're looking at doing a carport or an open structure, please check with us and we're happy to help and find a way. But yes, we believe that there would be a way to do an open structure or carport, especially if you don't have a garage or or something like that. Uh I believe this is in the open structure overlay, but I would I would really like to make sure that our staff visit with the citizen or the contractor to ensure that they they don't have any hiccups in the future, you know, because we go ahead. So because we are talking about a cultural district, art district if you will, whether you call it cultural or art or cultural art district, we know in many cities where you have these overlays, you have many artisans, artists who want to live in this kind of

[0:49:32] an area. Yes. So that one could come and spend a week in St. Angelo, Texas, and visit art house and studio, whatever. We want to enhance the cultural art element, which ties in so terrifically with our river and what happens ne north of the river. Does this leave us the flexibility? Does it leave a flexibility to allow for those kinds of development from a business perspective? Yes, we believe it does. Um, see if I can get back to one of the maps real quickly. I mean, if we're just looking at those two smaller areas of residential, look at the large areas that there are still some residential type structures in there, but they would allow some commercial utilization in there. or there's some smaller commercial buildings that could be converted to residential commercial together. Um or they could do a co-op in some areas and uh we know that like Art and Uncommon Places has a great facility down there that they might be able to rent out space to do some different art things there uh and still have a house that's within a walking distance or a short-term rental that's within walking distance to go over and do those things. So we believe that flexibility is built within this uh cultural district overlay zone and would allow that to continue to grow and thrive. You know, one of the projects that has happened which I think everyone should I wish we had a before and after but Hardman Pass where David Majour has purchased what some people considered like one of the worst eyes sores in this area and what has happened is turned it into something that is visually appealing. Yes. and will be utilized and that's the kind of thing that we want to see happen. And then the

[0:51:35] building next to it also has been improved by the nature of the mural that's on that wall and it is another structure that other people or everybody commented on how horrible those two structures were and did not enhance anything for the city of St. Angelo tourism etc. And I I believe along the um Washington and Highland uh entry corridors, there's a number of those buildings. Even the uh moving company that's down there, they've they've done a nice mural on their building. And it really enhances the drive coming in to the fort is, oh wow, there's you're starting to see art. You're starting to see other things that our community cares about what's happening in this area. And I think everybody in the room here today cares about what's happening in that area. How do we continue to help help it grow, help protect it for the next generation? Howard Taylor used to always or talked a lot about I think it's Avenue B and wanted um us to be able to really highlight when you turn off of the Bryant Boulevard and head over towards what was is hopefully a cultural district overlay so that people don't so they can find it because otherwise they go down turn on Koncho maybe wind back over there and maybe find something that We have there has to be a unity, something that brings it all together. Something that says to people, turn right here and find this incredible area called the cultural arts district. Yeah. And that's Avenue B. Yeah. Which leads straight into many of these assets that we have. It certainly is. Yeah. Say that loudly. visual corals and again the connectivity and talking yesterday with uh Laura Weingard on the te Texas Commission of the Arts, she says that's that's the key is having wayfinding to your cultural district um to come in and find those

[0:53:38] key amenities that you're trying to direct people to and through those corridors that you're protecting them. um talking with her, there's been this question about are we are we doing something that's contrary to the Museum uh of Fine Arts and they simp simply stated absolutely not. Um their their program is under the Texas Commission of the Arts. Ours is a zoning overlay which enhances their their district and allows them to continue to move towards more uh economic change allows them to continue to apply for grants for funding for different types of things in that area. And so we're very excited about that that we can continue to work together to enhance those two things. I think the other issue that we have to be um well aware of is if you take a look at affordability and property values and property per square foot. Some of this district allows for people to buy property at a value price and develop it into something that might not enhance this district. That too is another reason why we want to protect it because there are a lot of affordable dollar per square foot properties here that could work against what we're trying to achieve. That's correct, mayor. And and with zoning, we're looking at stabilizing those those property values as one of our key tenants as we look at zoning is is this development going to help pay for itself for the goods and services they receive? And so that is always a concern and with infill that's a better way to do that and it helps stabilize that area for longer term. The last item on this slide I want to make sure on number four is that uh as a specific restriction community services of itinerate sheltering or alcohol and drug treatment shall not be allowed as a new use. That means if one is existing, they would allow be allowed

[0:55:42] to continue to our knowledge currently that we do not have any that are existing. Itinerant sheltering is 30 days or less. Uh and that's why that's spec that's a specific term in the zoning ordinance. That's also what um we talk about hotels and things like that. This does not prevent hotels. It's based on if you're community services. So, if you're a commercial entity and uh wanting to bring in a hotel, those things are allowed. Or if you wanted to bring in a short-term rental, those are allowed. But this is itinerant sheltering or alcohol and drug treatment as a new use in those areas. What businesses would not be allowed to open up in this district? Well, again, I think the simplest is the the alcohol and drug treatment. Uh we would uh not allow those under our section 313, which is our use table. community houses uh which are commonly referred to sometimes as halfway houses but community houses they're not allowed in the district in in any of those areas. Uh and itinerant sheltering is really that we as a community believe there are places and appropriate places like our emergency shelter with Salvation Army and other places that are already identified and that we don't need additional emergency sheltering at this time until we identify as a community where those need to be. Vaping's not allowed. Say that again, ma'am. Did you say vaping was not allowed? I did not say vaping was not allowed. Vaping uh in a commercial a general commercial vaping stores are allowed. Uh there's no there's nothing in legislation at the state level or our local ordinance that prevents them. But again, if we're protecting those residential areas, they will not be in the residential areas of RS1 and RS2. design standards. This is uh one of the other questions. Again, we're exempting those single family, two family, residential from the design requirements. In general, the design

[0:57:44] changes should meet one or more of the following requirements. It doesn't have to meet all doesn't have to meet um everyone. The first one was the river corridor master development plan. Uh that's pretty specific of what h has there. Uh this second one is embodies characteristics distinct to type, period or method of construction or architecture. And what that really means is if you were a 1970s warehouse and you were built with metal cladding, you're going to get to go back with that metal cladding. We're not going to say you've got to change it to a 1920s style. Uh, I know that's that's in some people's minds that somebody will say you have to do those things. But that's the reason that line item is in there. Um, is if you're able to prove up that it was built here this style this time, you get to continue to stay that way. We're not trying to make you change. Um, is associated with the lives or persons uh, significant in local, regional, state, national, or international history. Represents distinct and familiar visual feature of a neighborhood or city. And I think about a lot of those structure types that over time that even if they are in the commercial area, but they were a craftsman house, is there a way to preserve that if a uh small commercial unity went in there that's outside of the RS1, RS2 and represents the works of a master designer, architect, builder, or craftsman? Are there any questions about the design standards before I move on? Who's going to be responsible for determining whether or not something meets one of these? Well, we would ask the applicant to choose which one they're they're meeting. Um, I think staff would have a discussion with them if something seemed odd, but really it's going out and looking at the property and saying, "Okay, we we agree with you." um those properties that are already historically overlaid, they continue to keep that historic overlay and they're at the highest threshold of meeting a standard and then it starts coming down based on the age of the property. Um ultimately, if it's a new structure

[0:59:48] going up, um design and historic review commission will have that authority to make some decisions. City staff has a number of things that we can do administratively. If there's for some reason there's disagreement between city staff and applicant, it can always go to the design and historic review commission. And ultimately, if they don't agree with them, it can also go back to our city council uh and have them make the final decision. Uh at that point, the goal is not to penalize developers or people that are trying to redo structures and make things more safe, more aesthetically pleasing. it is to work with them and to find some common solutions to enhance the area and how do we make this a good place to be for everyone that wants to be there. What about signs in that area? If it was a historical sign that's been there and it doesn't meet the criteria going back, it got destroyed or something, would it be able to go be put back? the the question is if it was destroyed and then there's some provisions in the zoning ordinance for items that were 100% destroyed, over 50% destroyed or under 50% destroyed. So there there's a possibility we have to prove up why. And if it was truly a historic sign, I think there are ways that we as a community would support that. If it's just a a generic sign, everyday sign that gets destroyed and it's over maybe the size limit, I think we would say we need to downsize that just a little bit. Further questions? Yes, Lucy. Erin, um, when y'all had these town hall meetings, what was the reaction of the public? How did they uh, embrace it or what was their concerns? I think their concerns. Um I would say the the main concern is there were some that felt like the process was going too fast. Um how many years have we been working on this? So I don't know how fast or how slow but does 10 years qualify as fast. I don't know. I I think some also were were trying to

[1:01:54] understand the details of what does it really mean? What are we regulating? Obviously like the intermoal containers, we had first written it as none, not allowed. We've gone back and changed that based on feedback uh that we've had. Uh same thing with the two residential areas, primarily the RS1 and the RS2 is let's give them some more protection instead of allowing commercial to go in there. Let's take the commercial out. Um I think that's kind of the the the main items. I would say there were there were folks that were very supportive and there were folks that still just had questions. Um, so they're answer their questions were answered. We gave them answers and they and and there was a negotiating around there was some. Yes, ma'am. Okay. Thank you so much. That's what you're seeing today. Yes. Other questions, comments from council Larry. The mayor mentioned vaping, but this certainly goes well beyond those bounds. Uh I don't know if there's any gray areas, but there's some of them that I think most of us would find uh not fitting in with the cultural area. Can you expand on that, please? So, currently we don't have anything in our ordinance that addresses vapes. Our ordinance is from 2000. Uh vapes really were created and started becoming popular in 2008. Uh we have had a case in front of the zoning uh board of adjustments that said in neighborhood commercial and lower commercial zonings they're they're not appropriate, but that allows in higher commercial zonings. In this area, we believe general commercial is a a use that should be allowed. Vapes do fall into the general commercial realm and they don't have any state regulation as far as distances from other properties or things like that. Um there could be some legislation that happens at the state level to do that, but uh nothing has come forward and and we have not brought anything forward until we work on our comprehensive plan and our zoning

[1:03:56] ordinance as a as a unified hole. So right now they would be allowed in some of in some of those spaces. Um as you look at your map, anywhere that looks like it's commercial outside of those two that are uh the light yellow and the medium yellow, they they could be allowed in those areas. Now, they'd have to meet all the development standards. They may have to do a change of occupancy and do things like that. Um, which means meeting the parking requirements and the signage requirements and everything. And I would say most of those stores are looking for hightra areas. So, that's Yeah. So, you see them on Chadburn on the north side of town. You see them on Avenue in, you see them on Sherwood Way. Those are our arterial streets that are higher in traffic and probably have a demographic that's going through there that they're looking for to come in and sell to high traffic, high visibility. This district wouldn't qualify for those two elements. But Karen, go ahead. Could the planning commission weigh in and perhaps you as well, Erin, is there a creative way to deal with that? Perhaps tagging that op sort of operation as a conditional use. We could add that to the use table as a conditional use in this district. I mean, we did go in and put in some spec specific restrictions if that's a desire of putting in a specific use as a restriction. Um, we could put that in there. It would fall under probably retail sales and services. Um, and we would have to since vape is not defined in our ordinance, I may have to lean on Brandon a little bit to help us on how we would do that. But yeah, I I would be worried about the noticing of this hearing if we were trying to restrict vape um and adding a new restriction in the ordinance that we'd be adopting today. I think I don't think we could do that without giving additional notice to the public. So, you can't pull away from retail sales and services a specific type of business

[1:06:00] without notification, you're saying? Yeah, because um we'd essentially say that today they could possibly do that, but after we pass this they wouldn't be able to do that. And so in chapter 211 of the local government code, we have to send specific notices that say we may be uh affecting the classification of your property. And that's actually kind of why we're here today um because we're doing that. So if we haven't notified him for that particular restriction, I don't think we could adopt that today. Well, I think you one of the comments that comes up is the whole issue concern about residential areas and terming in terms of turning a residential area, the middle of the block into a commercial business of some sort, right? But legitimately, most businesses who want to be successful need high visibility and high traffic. This district does not have high visibility for commercial business and it does not have high traffic. And those two things in themselves limit the amount of interest that would exist for turning some of these residential this residential area into commercial. And if you see any of those areas that are that are pink of any shade, those uses are allowed today and they're not there today. Yeah. And they're not there today. So, I don't think this change would highly entice them to come uh into that area. Um, higher traffic over time might. Um, but at that hopefully at that time, maybe we've found a a different way to say, "All right, we want to regulate certain types of businesses in a certain way." And I think that is certainly something on our our our plate for the future. Karen, so just confirming we could consider that in the future if

[1:08:03] that is of interest to people and that would be okay with you as well, Brandon. So absolutely I I still would like to hear the planning commission's opinion. I'm suggesting that perhaps and again it's premature to make them a conditional use in any zoning and then consider resi restricting the zoning that allows them. It's a little, but I think it might work. Um, so maybe later. Eric, you want to open up I mean Luke, you want to open up that conversation for anyone on the planning commission who might want to add to Karen's comment. Yeah. I mean, I'd be interested to hear what planning commission has thoughts on that or input from you Aaron as well. and and Brandon too. I think that's the biggest uh key is um how to go about trying to impose some type of restriction on a specific type of business basically GC zoning. I think it would be going back and doing the research just like we did for short-term rentals. What what is going on at the state level all the way down to local levels knowing what our uh local desire is. We would like some restrictions in some locations. I would think most of our citizens are saying, "Okay, well, those are restricted to people over 21 years of age. What other businesses do we restrict like that? And where do we restrict them to?" And then find the appropriate zoning or process, whether that's a conditional use or other to move through them so that they can um become legal businesses in the right locations. Many cities do that. Many cities are looking at that regulation. And I think it's really us coming forward with something uh that's thoroughly researched that we've had some town hall meetings with the industry to find out if there's compromises. Is there things that we need to be considerate of? But again, this area, our historical areas, we

[1:10:06] protection is the main idea and how do we continue to protect those areas and our historic neighborhoods and new neighborhoods, too. And I I'll just add when we were preparing for the ZBA case, I researched on this and I mean there wasn't really case law that um dealt with this and I think a lot of cities are struggling and they are addressing it kind of like we did the STRs. I mean some are in distance limitations and things of that nature. So, um, until those cases are heard or the legislation changes on it, yeah, I think it's kind of up to us to, um, you know, adopt reasonable regulations for those types of, uh, businesses. Karen, I don't want to get too far off the course of the main conversation. Uh, and this may get some giggles, but how how does and uh or does adult entertainment fit into this template. We are very close to one of those entities just outside the boundary of this. So, right now, those have very specific rules within our zoning ordinance already that significantly limits their locations in any part of town. there's really not any other spaces that they can expand into, which is why you don't see any others within our city limits. Uh so this cultural district um they actually do fall inside the district just barely. Uh and so we would actually have some design control if they chose to do something to the outside, but it does not prevent them from being a business as long as they continuously operate uh and are not vacant for more than two years. If they go vacant for more than two years, then then we'd have have a different discussion of change of occupancy at that point. Other questions, other comments from council? Continue. All right. So, I know that we had kind of touched on this um on the zoning portion when it comes to

[1:12:10] those types of um entities. Technically, if they fill out the application that says that they are just a retail that they don't have to specify that they're a vape store. Correct. We do ask those questions when they come in because we occupancy is based on what exactly are they doing under the building code and the fire codes. And so that those teams ask those questions. They then talk with our planners to say is that an allowable land use in that area. So those communications happen because not everybody understands the forms and fills them out as complete as we may need. And then there's also communications with the applicants on that. So if they were not just selling a specific, is there a certain percentage? Let's say they sell clothes and they sell sodas and snacks. Is that still falling into the retail? That would still be a retail sales and service store. That'd be more like a convenience store use than that's just a one single source of item. But has anything slipped through the cracks, if you will, uh, currently that has allowed somebody to open up without us catching it, without the planning commission knowing what was going on. Well, I'd say one of our limitations in our zoning ordinance is it doesn't speak directly to vapes. And so unless it's a change of occupancy under the building code, that would be the time that we would catch it. And we have caught some of those. Uh the other thing is a lot of our properties are zoned that dual zoning, general commercial, heavy commercial. And so even down Avenue in where butts right up against residential and ASU, that's general commercial, heavy commercial. And there's lots of different uses in there and some of them work really well, but those are areas that um particularly vape stores identify because there's high traffic. Mhm. So, but I don't think we've had a proliferation of items closer to neighborhoods, per se, and we have. We just haven't been notified of

[1:14:11] this is an issue. So, if it's sold out of the back bedroom, you don't know about it. We don't know about unless there's a complaint. Yes, ma'am. Okay. We'll let PD deal with those things. Okay. So, this here is a map um of the area. You see the red boundary. This is the Fort Concho historical district that encompasses Fort Concho and Fort Concho Elementary. This is the Oldtown District that encompasses Oldtown historic area, the fort and the river stage. And you can see a few other properties that have historic designations through here. And then the green is the river corridor that kind of snakes through here um and buffers uh the river. So what we're saying through this cultural overlay district, all those areas would be in the cultural overlay zoning district. The historic would maintain their historic nature and then everybody else is under the same rules for the design district. Um that we wouldn't be changing. I I show this just so you know where there are some historic properties in there. They are protected individually. Um again that residential area is right here. And of course, you can see there's some that would be under um right along Bird Street, uh the north side of Bird Street under the River Corridor. And over here, this primary area, there's some that are under the River Corridor. Again, they're exempt if they're residential. And all residential under this going forward would be exempt one family, two family, um unless they have a historic overlay. So, our recommendation from city staff and the uh committee that put this together is approval of the cultural district overlay zone amending section 311 of the zoning ordinance, creating a new land use cultural district overlay zone CD in section 304 of the zoning ordinance and amend the use table uh section 313. And I've got two caveats. One is that the RS1 and the RS2 areas

[1:16:17] would not allow commercial use. And then two, there is a statement on the very front of one of the packets that talks about an underlying zoning. There is no underlying zoning. And we will strike that statement under established. Um, and I'll read it to you very uh right now. It says allowed use of all property including included in the cultural district overlay zone shall continue to be governed by the the base zoning district and all regulations per p uh pertaining thereto. We are striking that statement. When this was first drafted, we considered keeping all those zoning districts, but over time it became apparent that that was not and we got more into the details and that line just needs to be stricken from there so that everybody knows that we're all on the same rules except for the RS1 and the RS2. And that is what staff's recommendation is today um to the planning commission and ultimately to the city council today. And so I'm here to answer any other questions. Um, I don't think I think that's it that we have right now. I just want to make a a statement and that is that the whole purpose of creating this cultural district overlay is truly to protect and preserve without taking away private property rights. We're trying to protect people and be again I say because of the many buildings lots over the years have been purchased because of the price the low valuation of those buildings and turned into warehouses or facilities that do not enhance our area that we talk about today as well as the downtown area. We want to make sure that people continue to invest in our community, that they continue to look as our community and take it with pride and to preserve the key aspects of what make this the great city that it is. And a lot of it really runs around Concho River. Yes. North and

[1:18:22] South. This has been 10-year process. So, anyone who says, "Why are you hurrying it up?" 10 years is a long time to discuss it, think through it, and come up with ideas. Today, I believe is a great concept. It's a great layout of what it should be, could be, and it keeps us protected and preserves who we are and the opportunities to continue to develop the cult cultural art district. You know, we were named the visual art capital for a reason. We want to enhance that. There are many other communities who want to take that away from us. Yes. And so we want to make sure that what we do today enhances that right to have the visual art capital. We don't want to lose it. And we want to protect the arts and the culture of this district, which is everything from historic to the Museum of Fine Arts to the Railroad Museum to our historic downtown. We've got to be forward thinking. If we wait, we'll regret. And I just want to make sure that we understand the importance of today's decision. It's been a long time coming. It's not a hurried up. It's 10 years in the making. And we need to make sure we finalize and take away the fear factors that people have knowing that we're trying to protect property rights and to protect the future image and historic elements that exist for the city of St. Angelo. Luke, it's in your hands. If y'all have no other questions for me, I think that would be our next step is to move to public uh comment. We have some questions and I have some comments too, but I just Great. Do we make public comment before we have a motion on the floor? That's a great question. We probably normally would

[1:20:25] have the motion and Yes, that is correct. Yeah. So, we need a motion and then public comment. But but the council Yes. But your council can ask questions first. Yes. And then then a motion would come then. It should be consider the public's comments before we make our before a motion is made. Yeah. Generally I think uh planning commission does allow public comment and then uh we'll make their motion. Okay. Um so along uh Irving Chadburn area there is Could you talk more into the microphone Joe please? along Irving and Chadurn area there there there's commercial and residential mixed. Yes. And the pink area between like Avenue C and Avenue B there's houses in there. So short-term rentals would be okay if someone bought those houses in the commercial area. Correct. That is correct. Okay. Would the 500 ft extend over into the yellow area? It does not currently. So if you have those two boundaries backing up, it would not overlap with the 500 ft. They would still be allowed by right. Else have anything? Will you clarify that? Sure. So I'm going to kind of zoom in right here. So you see this purple area? Say if there's a residential house right here that they choose to do a short-term rental, they do not have to get a conditional use and they are not subject to the 500 ft boundary. If you were here in the RS2, you would have to do a conditional use and then around your property is a 500t boundary. Now, if that 500 foot came into the purple area, it would not affect the purple area. So I just want to clarify a little further on that too with the way that you've proposed the optional or the option I guess

[1:22:27] to zone more or less in line with RM1 in those residential areas that STRs would be allowed by right and they're not subject to the 500 foot rule if we approve it that way. Correct. That is correct. So, if this yellow was to change to an RM1, which is still a residential use, would not allow commercial, but the only difference would allow short-term rental by right. So, no conditional use by planning commission and no 500 ft buffer between short-term rentals, but that would exclude other types of commercial use in those areas. Correct. It would not allow other commercial entities. It would not allow neighborhood commercial, office commercial, general commercial, none of that. Wouldn't allow a tax office. Same same with the RS1 area over here. Okay, so this is uh just probably being a dead horse, but if you look at the area between Avenue A and Avenue B, um where you've got basically several blocks of currently CGCH and one half a block of residential. Let's just say someone comes in and purchases that yellow area that's engulfed by CGCH right there where you're at. What's the process now for them to come and convert that to commercial? Would they come in and and reszone under the overlay? Yes, they would come in and reszone under the overlay. So, would they just remove their RM? Yes. Classification? That is correct. And then they're subject to the overlay. That is correct. I'm just trying to get my head around how the reason being all these colors that are on there, they will all go away to one standard color. Just like the central business district over up here is one color. These colors would all go away to one standard color called CD. These yellow would stay either yellow or

[1:24:30] orange depending on if you do RS2 or RM1, they would stay. And then if somebody came in to reszone their property, then they would go back. they would go to the standard color of CD. Yeah. Is what we would recommend. Just for clarification, so anything that's blue, pink of any sort, all of those would become some sort of gray, but yellow and orange would stay the same. Well, the orange is RM1. that that's a bigger area of low low-rise multif family use that could be there. Now, many of them are acting as single family, right? Our proposal is the light yellow RS1 and the darker yellow RS2, okay, would move to either RM1 or they would stay the same. One of those two options. Okay. But the orange that is there, they would actually go to the CD Okay. zoning district. Okay. So, um I just have a a few comments, I guess, and then um I'd like to go to public comment. Um, you know, I think that it's important, well, I think it's very important for us to always keep in mind that anytime that we're taking a big swing at a large area and impacting people's ability to use their property for various reasons. um we just need to be very careful about that. And so I think that it, you know, I I know that this process has been underway for a long time, but especially when it involves someone's home, I think we got to be very careful about that, too. And so I think we need to I think that there's a lot of merit behind uh what's being proposed here.

[1:26:33] And I think it's in line certainly with a vision plan and been in discussion for a long time. And I think there's a lot of um good that could come of it and provide for long-term benefit for the whole area for for building it out and redeveloping it and connecting it to downtown. Um, I think that there's some really good uh relaxation, I guess, of some of the restrictions and some of the challenges with some of these buildings because, as we've mentioned several times, the zoning in it is so uh eclectic, I guess, and you know, uh it is difficult with a lot of these buildings being built long ago for uses that are not really pertinent anymore. Um and that can become a challenge as we've seen in several cases in um in planning commission over the last several months. Um so I think um you know overall I I like the concept. I just want to be very cautious about uh anytime that we're affecting people's property rights. And so, um, you know, I think it's important too to understand that CGCH and light manufacturing, uh, surrounding residential areas is fairly he fairly intense. And so, more or less what's being proposed across the board is to reduce the intensity as far as that's concerned. And so, that's beneficial to those neighborhoods. Um, at the same time, the initial proposal really is um includes some increased intensity within some of those neighborhoods. So, I just want to be cautious as we go forward with that and be considerate of the people who live in those neighborhoods now and make sure have their buy in. And that's why I want to um open it up for public comment and hear from those residents. who has the highest level of a of

[1:28:36] responsibility towards personal property rights? Because if I live next door to someone, but I want to run a beauty shop out of my house, does a property owner next to me have the highest level of p personal property rights versus me who also have an investment in a facility and a need for income. Who has the highest level of authority for personal property rights? Well, my answer would be the jurisdiction that oversees everyone. Um, they're the ones trying to set a level playing field for all spaces, whether they're residential, commercial, industrial, and trying to apply the rules uh equitably across the playing field, if you will. Um, while one property owner may say, "Well, that's my right to do this." If the jurisdiction has adopted ordinances or codes that say here are the restrictions, then they may not be able to do that and allows an adjacent property owner to say, "Hey, that's not allowed. I'm I need to to say something." Uh, but it really does come down to the elected officials who adopt the ordinances and say, "This is what is fair for our community." We might also before we move on sorry light manufacturing because today if I um have a skill level of um welding that creates statues or pieces of art that's considered like manufacturing. Is that correct? We would consider it manufacturing by artisan which we are allowing by right in this district. um whether you're doing metal working um doing some things like that because your volume is not as high. So think about Miss Rio's uh corn products. That's a light manufacturing that they're they're providing corn products for a wholesale out to other retailers where most uh folks that are are welders and making ornamental uh art of some kind. While they may do some wholesale,

[1:30:40] it's not high volume and they normally sell just to individuals in a retail sales format. And so that is really kind of the the goal of allowing the manufacturing by artisans as well as bringing artisans to a cultural area that more than likely will have people that are visiting that are interested in their goods and services and they can have those conversations uh on in their shop or on their site. So if I make jewelry in my house in my back bedroom, I I think you could probably make it in your house. It depends on where you choose to sell it. Now, we know people do it on online all the time. Um, but it's hard to drive people to your house to come and buy things on a high enough volume that it's really your primary business. Um, again, I think there are times that people might complain about those things and it all comes down to traffic generation, particularly in those residential areas. Um, but the idea is to create areas of commerce within this district that allow the entire district to thrive. Thank you. I do have a question in regards to I'm I'm comparing the cultural district that we're looking at to the tiers. Um, and it doesn't look like some of the new proposed area is currently included in like the tiers funding. Have we had any discussions on potentially moving the tears boundaries in order to assist some of the property owners in our new area um to make the improvements that we would love to see as a city? I think that's a longer term discussion because moving or changing the boundaries of a tiered district, it's very very difficult. No, you can't do it. And and we have about 10 more years to go. Uh so we we need to be strategically thinking about that over the next 10 years of if our community wants to continue a district in a different area, have multiple districts,

[1:32:42] but I think for this area that may be an option. Um but again through the uh Museum of Fine Arts under the Texas Comm uh Commission on the Arts, they have some grant funding opportunities through their district which both districts are very very similar. And so I think we would tend to turn people towards them for advice and direction if they're outside of the TEI district. The other key issue in TEI is the uh amount of residential that you have. So it has to be highly driven. You're very limited to a percentage that can be residential in order to qualify for tiers. So that becomes an important conversation. If there's an interest to doing that, if you have this high level of residential, you'll disqualify. And our and our public works team, they've gotten a a large grant through Tex Dot that's going to add a wonderful pathway sidewalk through Chadburn all the way down to Avenue L, which is going to connect some of these areas even better. There are some opportunities for TEI to partner with that in some other areas to continue that connectivity. And so I think there's some options there that it may not directly impact the private structures, but it will certainly impact those private properties in a positive way. Ma'am, yes, Karen, I'd like to go back to the mayor's question to you about who is the highest authority. And just for point of interest in the state of Texas, legislation exists to encourage cultural district districts and to excuse me to influence development density through zoning regulations. The Texas Commission on the Arts can designate cultural districts. Uh there are special zones aimed at boosting local economies and community vitality through cultural resources. Additionally, state law addresses development density, sometimes limiting municipal authority. And on that note, a couple of other things to keep in mind. There are 54 TCA designated cultural districts in 41

[1:34:45] cities in the state of Texas as per the cultural trust. There are bills being heard now, bills that have been introduced now which aim to reduce city control over land use by imposing standardized regulations. And so something to keep in mind, I I think particularly for those that are worried that that this is happening too quickly. In parallel, our state government is acting to limit our ability to do this very thing. So it's as yet unresolved, but it's certainly something to keep in mind. Yes, ma'am. Luke, we took it over. Sorry, it's back in your hands. I think I opened public comment a while back. Scott Sustic. Yeah. Good morning everybody. Good morning, Mayor Gunter, city manager Valenuela, esteemed council members, concerned citizens, my colleagues from SAFA. It's good to be here this morning. And I'll tell you three sweet words. I'll be brief. First of all, I'm concerned I won't be able to go to Brenda's barber shop. I'll have to keep going to A-Rock. Uh, as the curator of education for the SA, uh, I have been a educator and artist for 32 years plus. And I'm just here to advocate for kids because our visitors to the SFA St. Angelo Museum of Fine Arts exceed 40,000 visitors per year. And more than 33,000 of those are school-aged children. My concern is only signage that people can find our programming. All right, so that's bus drivers and parents. We don't have wandering hordes of children roaming the city. Thank the good Lord. But the signage, I just wanted to make sure that we are able to promote our programming in a respectful way. We only have uh simple 4x8 vinyl signs printed

[1:36:48] up, designed by graphic designer Katie Via. Uh, I can email a sign if you would like to see an example, but I think that's um unnecessary considering they're 32 square ft, well under the 75 square ft limit. But I just want to know that we can the museum can continue to promote our programming with signage. We might have six uh exhibits per year plus the what's in the education department and the Koncho Clay Studio. And people need to be able to find those places. That's all. That's my concern. So, under the current signage where there's maybe 30 days for temporary signs and maybe limited to three times per year, would that affect our programming and our ability to advertise what's inside the museum? Well, we're doing another section on signage right after this conversation. So, okay, does this come under this overlay or does it come into the conversation about signage? It is mentioned in this overlay um about the limitations and the gentleman is right that it would be three times per year um that you'd be allowed in in 30 days. Um I think that can be adjusted if necessary. The the the challenge is we just see a proliferation of banners as opposed to regular signs, but there are maybe some temporary signs that might be more appropriate in how we classify things as temporary signs versus banners. Um, but I'd be happy to visit with them to make sure that they're in compliance and not be restricted in some way to allow their programming to continue. Well, and I think we can get into further depth. You bring it up and it's obviously a piece of this, but as we get into the um 3B where we really talk about signage, we could get a lot more specific. Okay. And open the window for that a little bit more or close the window. I was just concerned. So, do I email you, Erin, if we have a new sign for proposed for a program or an exhibit? Yeah, let's give a thumbs up. And let's certainly talk later this week and we can sit down and find the right way to to work through it. Appreciate it.

[1:38:54] Roy Sesh, thanks for being patient with us. Thank you. Uh, I'm Roy Zesh. I'm president of the Sanangial Association of Realtors. Some some concerns about this and and part of it is that yes, it does feel rushed and not well thought out. And I know that there's been things happening in the background for 10 years, but I suspect many of the property owners in this area had no information about this until a few months ago. Um, so there was very little attendance in the town halls. Does that mean people consented to what was happening or does that mean they were not aware of it, didn't understand the information they were presented? Uh the second would be just the effect on affordable housing because this is a fairly affordable neighborhood. If homes are converted to commercial uses, uh the dreaded short-term rentals, any of those kind of things, that's going to lower our inventory of affordable homes. Third would be the the loss of zoning protection. And this has been discussed a good bit today in those residential zones. Do the residents that own homes or landlords that own homes in this understand the potential losses of their rights? Now, the flexibility is great. I mean, there's having Brenda's Barber Shop in the front of your house is a great thing, but that also means you could have a bar next door to you. I mean, it's hard to restrict one and and give the ability for the other one to happen. Uh, then big one is the loss of zoning rights for the people with the CGC and the light manufacturing property owners. that they know that do they are they aware of these things happening because you're potentially I mean obviously because they're grandfathering those rights don't go away immediately but if there's ever a change of use a sale different things like that they are losing some potential rights in those areas another concern is that there it's another layer of bureaucracy that can that people want to have to go through to get improvements made to their property. the city already is uh sort of difficult to work with by reputation and adding another layer of bureaucracy,

[1:40:57] another group that can say no doesn't seem like it will help. I do see lots of positives in the proposal. uh you know there is the the flexibility you get to have have some things some like commercial uses and what do those look like but there's still a lot of concerns about the loss of of owners property rights and the lack of knowledge by the affected uh property owners that both residential and commercial in different different directions so thank you Joe Chavaria [Music] Yeah. Good morning and appreciate you giving me this opportunity and uh uh I retired from 45 years on construction so I know pretty much what goes on. And one thing that I want to make clear is that uh I didn't get no lettering for the second or this meeting here. And you wouldn't get um a letter talking about today's specific meeting. You should have received notification if your house or business is within the zone. You should have received something uh in the mail. I have four properties and none of them got any letterings, mayor. So, and there's some uh other ones that I visit with them and the same thing. They did had no letterings for this meeting and the only meeting that I got was the very very first one. On top of that, uh I understand that uh y'all been working on it for 10 years. Well, not every day. Us personally as us personally as far as knowing about the subject, it's been two and a half weeks max and now it's uh let's put it this

[1:43:03] way, they want to shove it down our throats that quick. We need some time because on the first meeting that I I was there, uh, some of that was a pretty good issues that were not answered, questions that need to be answered completely straight out. Uh, I had the opportunity to be on just by word of mouth. I showed up on a second one without notice. And anyways regardless uh as far as my behalf that two conversation two meetings were totally different versus today. So I just want to make sure you know I bring this up and we definitely need one more time. June July y'all y'all had the opportunity to to be on this here subject for 10 years. Why can I we get two months out of it where we can have answers directly to the homeowners? Do you have a question today for us that's not answered? Well, one of them is uh that concerns me on my neighborhood. I live on Allen Street. I own four four properties and Rayata owns some too. There's another one that in other words there's no empty there's one in two empty lots on Allen Street and to my satisfaction I feel great the way I am on that neighborhood because it's real Pacific quiet area. The only the only noise that I hear would be just once finish your sentence. Yeah. Once I'm sorry once once a year three 365 days fireworks and I like it. Thank you. Thank you. Monica Ramos. [Music]

[1:45:10] Good morning council mayor. Sorry, excuse me. I should have said good morning to you first. Planning commission. Monica Ramos. I am the neat thing. What's going on? It's a user error. It's out of control. Not you, Monica. The system. I'm the director of downtown St. Angelo. Oh, good. Good now. Okay. And we're in favor of this cultural overlay. It aligns with downtown. It complements downtown St. Angelo. Um, of course, this is a given. the cultural significance that this provides or already exists. This will just enhance our cultural rich our cultural richness of our downtown and continue this um southward. It highlights and supports artistic characteristics of our community, our traditions and our heritage. So, we'd like to see this. Um, it brings people together and it already is doing so with the Museum of Fine Arts, the Railway Museum, Fort Koncho, the River Stage, the Concho River. This has already been mentioned that these are some of our greatest assets. And so, to be able to have this overlay as something that we already see as being established, but now it's more official, this really adds to it. Um, we've received calls to our office from people that have looked for studio space for photography or art studios. This is the perfect neighborhood for this to happen. Um, this will bring people to this area, art, artists and craft makers where they can share their work and really thrive in this cultural neighborhood. Um, so we see this as a positive. It's positive creative community development that we see as an opportunity. Um, as far as the economic impact, we all know that tourism is a big deal for St. Angelo and for downtown especially, tourists are just naturally drawn to beautiful and attractive places. And so, as long as this district continues to grow and it'll be a draw, it needs to be cared

[1:47:14] for. And that's what this overlay does is it cares for it. Um, it'll encourage entrepreneurship with the small businesses, uh, like craft makers and artisans, being able to open up the door for them to have a little more opportunity of what they do as far as having their studio space, their galleries, their workshops within this corresponding neighborhood. So, I wouldn't think of this as being something that's completely or drastically changing anything. It already is. Um, this is just enhancing and protecting the uniqueness of this area. So, we are fully in support of it. Thank you, Lynn Shipley. I would like to suggest that. Good morning. Um, thank y'all for having us. I'm Brie Parks. I'm the board chair at the St. Angelo Museum of Fine Arts. Um, so TCA, Texas Commission of the Arts, only meets once a year and we would like the chance to review these changes with them and have input on how these changes could impact the cultural district. Um, so we don't lose our designation and we can stay in compliance with Texas Commission of the Arts. Um, we believe that our past director may have had knowledge and input on this matter, but the board was unaware of any discussions relating to the zoning changes until more recently. Um, and then that have not had time to review the impact, whether positive or negative, it may have. We do want to support the development and growth of our dis cultural district as well as protect and preserve St. Angelo, and we appreciate you wanting to do that. Um, and we want to be on board with it. We

[1:49:18] understand that you have had 10 years to review this, and we would just like the same courtesy um, as a board and as a community to have the time to review, understand, and make suggestions to these changes. [Music] Um, we would like to, the Dallas Arch District has anou at the city. Um, and it's something that we would like to discuss and maybe have in this where we can come up with our ideas and your ideas, you know, that ex that prevents non-artrelated development so it doesn't alter the district's function. Um, but we do want the growth and we want to support the city with the cultural district and making it better. Uh we just would appreciate a little more time as a board so we can meet and discuss and for our building committee to to meet and discuss. Thank you. Thank you, Aaron. Does the Texas Commission on the Arts have any authority at all? They have authority with the Fine Arts Museum uh for the district that they have created uh for our zoning overlay. uh talking with them yesterday that there is there are no issues with us doing a zoning overlay um that changes the zoning or the design criteria that would be coming in. Um so currently we we feel like while the zone the districts overlapped um had we called ours a different thing than the cultural district I think we'd have a different discussion. Um but as they agreed that's the only thing that's similar is that the word cultural district is in both titles. Correct. Um so currently they are separate districts. We want to enhance what the the fine arts museum does and we have the zoning authority to help in those areas. And so we want to do that as a

[1:51:21] partnership. And I think moving down the road, anouou might be a great opportunity to work out any types of issues or differences u that can help enhance this area. Thank you, Mr. Shipley, mayor, city council, and uh Erin, I would like to take this opportunity to share just a few thoughts that we've continued to ponder uh since the last eight months has been brought to our attention that uh there's going to be some changes and they're being accelerated. Now, now I want to stop right here and I'd like to give you a compliment, Erin, on all this detail that you've gone into. You've done a fantastic job and so it's really helped us to really align as much as we can with you all. Here's where we're at as far as I see it. Uh, right now, we want to do everything we can to be supportive. We want to grow the Museum of Fine Arts. I've been there now for just a little over three months and is it amazing what you learn as you go through trying to bring new culture into our community and all the things that we have to align to make sure that our eyes are dotted and teases are crossed. But we've gotten into a situation here that everything's being accelerated. I do not see after the many years that I've been in retail over 50 years why we have to accelerate this now. There's no reason. What we need to do is abide by our community and support our community as we move forward. So our request is as Bri just commented on that we move okay into June give everybody a perfect chance to be supportive of this program because we are we want to be be successful. We want to work with the

[1:53:23] city but we feel like we're being forced to make a decision. There's been a lot of actions that have been taken that once we communicate a meeting, then we're immediately back to meeting middle of April and then we're going to make a decision. I'm asking for that decision to be moved and everybody here understands why. Because what we have to do is make sure it's the right move. We need to make sure everybody's involved. the last eight months, okay, is when everything has started taking place. I've been here for three months, didn't know anything about it. And so, all this has come up in a very, very fast-paced time. So, my request is to take a step back and listen to what everybody has and let's make sure. Now, I know you all have stepped out. We've had several meetings, but what we need to do is we need to take everybody into consideration as we move forward. So, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak and I look forward to see what the outcome is because we all want a positive outcome. Thank you very much. Steve Eustace. Thank you very much. Um, my name is Steve Yistas and I own three properties in this district, but I'm primarily want to keep my comments in more of a general way. I'm an experienced commercial real estate practitioner and a private property rights defender and I'm very familiar with zoning and reszoning. I've been doing it many years. Um, I will have a recommendation at the end if my five minutes are not up by then, but it's there's a lot of material to cover here. I want to thank Mayor Gunner first of all for preserving the history of this town has been a really top priority of yours and I thank you for that. And I want to thank Karen and u the other people that

[1:55:29] came to town hall meetings. you set and listen to concerns and that's what we're supposed to be doing is dialoguing and working through this. The staff has worked hard. Aaron has I don't know how you do it, Aaron. And we've had a couple of tense moments, but as far as I know, we're all still friends. So, that's good. I want to let you know that I am supportive of forming a cultural overlay district. I am supportive, but this is not the way to do it. And we can do much better than this. Much better than this. I love this city. I'm a third generation St. Angeloan. I have substantial investments in this area and along the river. And to think that anybody would speak against the way we're doing this is an indication that we don't care about our community is just wrong. I love the fort. I love the Riverwalk. I love the Museum of Fine Arts and I try to support all those. Um, but this is rushed very much so to my knowledge. And Aaron, correct me if I'm wrong because I ask you about this. We usually start new products or new changes with the development task force meeting, which has been very, very good the last three or four years. That's where ideas start. Erin, I don't remember this topic ever being at a development task force meeting. I I don't go to all of them, but I do go to most of them and I do read the agendas. So, I think it is rushed. Um, the letter was sent out on February the 15th. No, it it was sent out on a Tuesday, end of February, and our first town hall meeting was one week later from the date that's on the letter. Now, you got to assume it didn't arrive the next day. I didn't look at it till over the weekend,

[1:57:33] and we had a meeting Tuesday. Now, y'all may have been working on it for 10 years. That means that it's very complicated. Is that an official three minute or is that a miss? Is this a beep or problem? That was a a three minutes. I think Mr. Eustus has asked to use five minutes and that would be up to your your discretion. I believe you have two minutes more. Okay. So, I don't know what the deal is on residential. I don't know why y'all are taking that out. That was part of the purpose of this is to encourage these little shops, these little art studios. And now all of a sudden, we're taking the residential out. Why even put it in there if we're not going to I mean, what what benefit is including it in the arts district if you're not going to do what the purpose was? And I assume y'all changed that in the last day or two because that's really kind of the first I've heard of is today. So there's just so many resources to do this, right? We don't know about this. The people don't read this kind of stuff. And I want to point out that our vision plan specifically states that we're supposed to provide opportunities to grow neighborhoods to get them involved in planning and zoning activities and and strongly encourage representatives to use land applications to be involved in early on in the process and we have not done that. I keep up with what's going on in the city and I didn't know about this till I got that letter. So, I want to tell you that uh all these commercial properties, they're going to they may be nonconforming immediately if you adopt this, but buildings are vacant for a long time in San Angelo. There's commercial buildings been vacant for 40 years, but we know one of these days somebody's going to invest in them. The marketing time for commercial building is one to five years. And so you think

[1:59:36] if you've got a warehouse and it's vacant, what are you going to have to do in two years? You lose that and you're going to have to put in general commercial that it you're just you're not going to encourage people to invest in this area. So I'm going to go to my recommendation and I hope it didn't. Is that within their two minutes or do Okay, ma'am. Yeah. Just making sure you're on the twominute time frame. Would you put up my recommendation, please? Instead of trying to amend this thing as we're going along here because we haven't had time to flush out all the problems. I don't understand why we don't understand that. We're not going to flush out issues until we start talking about this with each other, having community meetings. And I know y'all have reached out, but that doesn't alter the fact that they don't know about it. So I my Where'd he go? Where' my overhead go? So I believe that we should adopt this plan, this cultural district, but limit it to what is colored in red. We might also consider going down a block to Highland and maybe over to the west a half a block. There's no residential in that. There is it's just commercial buildings. There's no heavy. There's no warehouses. This is the plan I would like for us to adopt. We ought to use resources. We ought to work with the Texas Commission on the Arts. There are lots of professional organizations to help us do this. Let's have the best cultural district we can possibly have, not some put together. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Christopher Ro. Good morning, city council. My name is

[2:01:40] Christopher Roi. I'm the president, current president of the St. Angelo Railway Museum. also represented here by our vice president uh Dr. Linda Bond uh have the privilege of being in this position after the retirement of uh Susanna Venuela and the great work that the board has done up to that point. We are in support of this cultural district. The railroad museum falls underneath this new zoning district. We provide so many different things to the community and we're we're lucky to have such a space and an environment and a venue to do that. We just recently had the kickoff of our new second Saturday events, Steam Days. Uh had numerous vendors come in, uh uh hundreds of dozens of kids and and their their parents. U just a really unique time and space. We provide a lot of education, sometimes uh unknowingly. I was privileged to observe a person who was about 20 years my senior, a little bit taller with gray hair, and his grandson come into the museum. And as I after I did my little spiel and talk, picked up his grandson and they were looking at different displays throughout the uh museum and they keyed on a specific aspect of one and there was a great grandson grandfather teaching moment there. uh something that went way back into our our historical past and it was a neat event to see that p that past and history coming alive. We've been part of the community for 25 years as a museum. The depot dates back to 1910 and the railroad goes back to 1888. The railroad has historically brought people to St. Angelo whether to explore, to have business, to live, and to settle or to visit. The museum continues that mission. We still bring people in from out of the country. We would like to partner with other railroad museums across the state and the country and network to where we can all share visitors back and forth. There's

[2:03:43] specific people that come just for uh railroading. I'm myself am a prenatal uh model railroader. My grandfather bought me a Lionel set before I was born. But the railroad community is very important. and also people that just look they they Google what's there to do in St. Angelo and they see great and wonderful things like our our performing arts museum and our art our cultural arts museum uh the river and they see the railroad museum and they they come. So I think it's a great opportunity to to have this more developed and to have it u able to be able uh to reach out to the greater community. And with that we are in support of this and I thank you very much for your time. Thank you, Julie Raymond. Julie, you're on. Hello, I'm Julie Raymond and I'm president of ArtN Common Places and I am very, very excited about this. This is very inclusive for artists. Uh the fine arts museum, the um railroad museum, which we're so happy everybody's in this district and we can develop this way, the river corridor, the where the uh I can't even name everybody there. And this is bringing that together and giving opportunity. When I sit in my studio, um we have the augmented reality murals. I don't know if you haven't seen them. If you have, check them out. But it's got a ticker of people coming from all over the country and then they come into our studio and I say why are you here and they say you're hitting as a artful city. So I think doing this is going to validate that and help so much. The other thing every day I have artists that need a space. Uh they can afford to live and create in the same space but they can't just buy a studio. They have a very that's a difficult time. And I

[2:05:48] think way back with Rudac in the very beginning they were saying we needed affordable spaces for artists developers follow the art community because they go in and buy um not attractive places and they make them beautiful and it enhances. So I think you're really giving an opportunity to that. Uh I'm excited. I own two buildings in this area and I see it as a very big positive and thank you for all your work and I appreciate it. Thank Ray Zapata. Good morning. Thank you for having us here. And I wanted to echo everything the museum has been saying. I want to echo everything Steve Eustus has said, what our artist uh has said. I've been around, we have been around for 60 years, lived as residents and done business there. All we're simply asking is some time. That's all. We're behind it all. We love it all. But there's some a lot of people, the people that are here are the only ones that have been at the last two meetings. Some of us received notices and some of us didn't receive any notices. And so that concerns us. I know Tommy, I know Mr. Harry, I know Miss Hessie, they represent our areas and we need just a little bit more time to iron out. You can't go backwards and undo something that's that's legally put into place. There's a lot of residents. I've been a resident of this area and I wonder how it's going to affect us tax-wise because there's a lot of lowincome Hispanics, Mexican-Americans that have lived in this whole area and it's a great big area. So, I want to just have some time. We want to have some time. Not me. All of us want to have some time to be able

[2:07:51] to look at it and iron out any questions that we have. Erin, you've done a great job. We've been there. And with that said, I just want that's all I'm doing is echoing what we're asking for. Thank you very much. Thank you, mayor. Thank you all. Appreciate you, Mayor. I think um we have several committee members who may have drank a lot of coffee this morning. Would it be appropriate to take a five minute bathroom break? Yeah, that concludes public comment for this item. So, okay, great. You okay with that? Yeah. Take a five minute break room and sit down and get ready to uh get continue with this meeting. Oh, I've got to tell you, Steve, is they're healthy. to call back to order. Okay. Uh, thanks for allowing us to take that break, Mayor. Go ahead and call. We all needed it. We'll go ahead and uh I guess uh call the meeting back to order. And um I think we've ended public comment. So close public comment and uh move to discussion amongst our committee. And we basically um need to have a motion with a recommendation to either approve approve with modifications or decline it. uh that will go to city council to

[2:09:54] discuss and vote on. So I would open it up for discussion amongst the group. Well, I just want to say I mean it seems like from everybody that we've heard from today is very much in support of the idea behind this. [Music] Um, but the concerns that we have heard are we just need a little bit more time. And I guess I want to know from sitting in this position is giving those individuals and the art museum, you know, what's two a couple more months to allow them to do whatever is necessary to re research this. Um, is that going to be harmful to this process? Well, things could happen. Yes. I mean, the challenge is getting a a meeting like this together. Um, doing this meeting again. The struggle we have as staff is it's been asked a number of times to give us specifics of what is problematic. Uh that's why you have that packet on your those are the ones that have come in and there were very few specifics other than just opposed and so it's hard to work if you don't know what they're opposed to. Uh we did work through the interotal container items. Um we have heard over the last two weeks uh about the protection for residential and so we've brought forward a proposal to help protect that resident those two residential areas a little more. Um, beyond that, we're just not sure what what is still left to work towards or on. Um, I understand losing zoning from light manufacturing and heavy commercial, but I again go back to our full purpose of this area is we're trying to protect our heritage and cultural areas and light manufacturing, heavy commercial are not congruent or or

[2:11:58] alignment with those areas. So, I don't know that we would change our recommendation to planning commission andor city council from that stance, but I again two more months. I'm not sure what would change in two months. Um, we sent over 500 uh notices for the two town halls. We had two town halls and they were attended by um different people. Um, some were the same, but they were also different people. the the museum was h was um we were able to use their space a a local space in the neighborhood. So I'm not sure what would change in the two months from changing the the regulations that are presented today. Okay. Now this has been quite a few years and again kind of going back and referencing um the map when we did um the CBD district originally um there were some businesses that I brought that concerned me. Palmer's was one of them. Um, Hartman Roofing was over there. And we kind of gave a few of those businesses the option of being included or not. Um, I mean, have we done the same thing? Because, you know, an I think Angelo Glass is over in this area. There's a roofing company. Um, and then multiple other businesses kind of going down u near the rail line there. Both of those that you mentioned are allowable under the office warehouse. So there's no change that would happen to them. Um just like roofing companies, those are contractor yards. He has an office, he has a yard, he has a warehouse that fits under our office warehouse. The um Angelo glass minimizes the amount of outdoor storage. Correct. It it does um over time. In fact, uh I think the roofing company is already screened, so they're they're doing a good job of of what they're trying to do for the area. Okay. Um, and again, nothing would change unless they made a change on their site that triggers a development review. Okay. And then in the the packet of opposition that we received, there were quite a few comments um in regards

[2:14:02] to Rust Street and traffic of vehicles. Can we just discuss that so the public can hear a little bit as well? Yes, there was a question at the last uh town hall meeting about commercial traffic in the area. And so we researched that and under our ordinances currently that um operations uh handles there are certain rules about commercial traffic. The rules allow commercial traffic to come into these areas, stop, unload, reload, do all of those types of things just like uh down Chadburn if you will for people that are doing business there. Um we do not have this overlay does not change any of those traffic rules. they would not prevent anyone from parking on their property uh in the manner that they're doing now with heavier vehicles, uh box trucks, those those types of things. So, we researched it. It does not prohibit uh what the uh individual that was asking the question that has a property on Rust Street. Can he still get commercial vehicles there? Yes, he can. And then, sorry to steal the stage, just one um additional question um that Steve Eustus brought up. Um he he had mentioned the marketing time for commercial properties is typically 1 to 5 years. We all know there's so many vacant properties in um our downtown district. Um when uh I believe one of the slides had mentioned if the building was vacant for 2 years and I I apologize because I cannot fully remember what the slide had mentioned. Um how has that been addressed? Has Steve been able to talk to you guys about just commercial marketing? So we have an understanding on that aspect as well for personal property rights. So currently our ordinances um there's two areas. One is the building code and so building use of that structure gives two years vacancy before you have to change your occupancy. which means under the

[2:16:04] building code, you may have to come up to certain code regulations. Under the zoning ordinance in sections uh 604, we have the nonconforming land use. It actually only gives you 12 months and always has since 2000. What we're doing here is watering that down. We're saying every property gets two years. So, this district actually is being watered down from the rest of the community that only has 12 months. If they have a vacant property and the land use changes, we're talking land use, not building use, the land use changes, they have to come forward to planning commission andor city council to change something. We're going to allow two full years that you don't have to come to us for that in this in this district. So, it's it's a relaxation of those rules. So if a building was being used for storage and not necessarily operating a full business out of what happens with that building? It would stay under the building code a storage occupancy and under the zoning code it would be a warehouse uh land use. Thank you. Um, so I have a few things I guess just to mention and I guess I'll start first with with my probably my biggest concern with the the proposal is the subjectivity and the approval. Um, and I think what we have five, four or five, um, items that any of those could be utilized to um, determine whether or not the property is compliant with the the requirements of the district. Um, and and the reason I say I'm concerned with that is just the fact that I mean what's written in the ordinance is what's really important. And I think what um you know when that comes up again we none of us may be here and we may all know exactly what we want it to look like. But if it's written so

[2:18:08] subjectively that it's just kind of up to what whoever happens to wake up on or depending on what side of the bed they wake up on that day then I I don't think that's beneficial. At the same time, I think it's important to have a balance because the whole idea behind a cultural and artistic district is that it be eclectic and unique and that there's some flexibility in those things. So, um I I'm doing what most people do right now, Erin, is just pointing out the problems and not offering any type of solution. Um, but I do I am um I would like to see that u maybe refined or further um delineated to where it's truly easier on staff to determine and developers and also to just promote the consistency and expectations of what can and can't be in that area. Um chairman, are you talking about land use design? What what exactly? design I think um and I can't remember what slide that was on. I tried to find it. Um but basically we had um you know the five I think there four or five options uh in one of your slides that was uh to conform with the uh historic overlay was one of them. So I don't know if you want to pull that back up but yeah I can. and it right. Yeah. So, this was, you know, as you can see where I underlined meet one or more of the following. Um, there was concerns that the river corridor master development plan from 2006 was a little dated. And so we looked at the rest of our items that we allow for design standards in our downtown district and our historic district and historic overlays. And we also have these um items within our our our policies. And so we brought them forward as here are

[2:20:12] some alternative items that people can meet so it stays flexible because I believe the concern was if you o own a a building from the ' 60s7s or 80s do I have to turn it historical and the answer is no you're able to keep it the way it is. Um the the items that go through DHRC are major reconstruction, major remodel, the minor things, signage, paint color, doing some few things on the outside, changing like for like that's all done administratively and within a 10-day period um so that the property owner can move forward. Again, we're exempting the single family, two family residential, so it's really just impacting any commercial ventures at that time. Um, and with the this slide, you can see where the areas are already that are are hatched and under the green, they're already under those same rules right now. And so, you're just adding some other areas. You know, the PO is is what the PO is. Um, there's some warehousing over there just north of the um the fort. And then you've come down Washington and Highland where they've already done a lot of good work on a lot of those structures and been working on them to to make them more inviting. So I don't think we're going above and beyond with our design criteria and trying to stay flexible. Um and so I that's that balance as you say what's flexible and what's predictable. Yeah. Um, I think the other thing to me that's that that I just want to make the point, I guess, is that I think this is an exciting opportunity for our community and I think it's something that is could really benefit this whole area and and downtown. Um, and I think in listening to some of the public comment, um, I just think it's important that we have neighborhood buyin. um because I think with everybody on board with this and fully um

[2:22:17] committed to it, it will be, you know, much more successful and um you know, could gain a lot more momentum that way. So, um I know that you guys did a lot of outreach and the town halls and and everything, but um I just want to be cognizant of making sure that um especially the neighborhoods that are being affected um understand uh exactly what's happening and what what's going on with their property. And so, I think with some of the options that you provided as far as get providing some additional protection to the residential areas, um I think that's really helpful. Um, I think it gives them a little bit more time to fully understand and for, you know, hopefully those areas around them to redevelop and a lesser intense use than what they're currently allowed to do and um, you know, improve their neighborhoods and um, so anyway, I just think it's important to uh that that we be aware that we're we're affecting their properties. All I have I would just like to say so many um asked uh in our um opened uh discussion for more time mainly uh not because the plan has that many problems. I didn't hear a lot of that but more about not knowing and needed time to study look at it. how does it fit with my individual or like the Museum of Fine Arts, that's a a large project and um they ask for the two months specifically. Um, and so I'm of the opinion if we have that many that need um more assurance on the plan, uh, want to study it because they didn't know any of this was going on and I'm sorry about that. Uh, time

[2:24:20] has been spent on these things. But I do uh feel that um if we're going to um be successful, as Luke said, um maybe um getting a buy in um is an important factor as well. No sir, it would not. public comments over at this time. Patrick, do you have anything? So, the only thing I would say is I I'm kind of with the same mindset as Candy. Um, where I agree with everything that we're kind of talking about and the way that we want to preserve the residential areas. I think that's really important. Um, I also agree with the way the plan is going to shape that area. Um, I think it's it all sounds really good. Um, and it sounds like there's a lot of buyin from the people who are here as well, but as was mentioned, a lot of them do feel like they could benefit from an additional two months of looking over the information. Um, and I I'm of the mindset like if we were working at it for 10 years, that's a long time to put effort into it. Um, what's another two months? And I I know things could change. I do I do understand that. Um I think we've seen a lot of change. You know, that can happen uh rather quickly. Um but I am still of the mindset that I would rather give the people two more months to be able to really feel invested in what we're trying to do with the city. Um and that's kind of where I'm coming from. I think just a general question to my colleagues would be if we did let's say provide two more months. What are we expecting staff to do with the citizens

[2:26:22] or business owners in that two months? I mean obviously everyone's got some general questions. Um I do think that staff did a very good job outlining um the general purpose and the reason behind all of this. So, um I don't know, Erin, if there's any if we had separate meetings with some of the business owners, some of the residents, can we really amend much of what you've presented? Well, it it would take a another notice to come to city council and ask for a joint meeting and an alternative notice process. um then schedule that meeting out whatever that date would be. The question is how do we do our our town halls? We did as a courtesy sent letters to over 450 plus property owners in the area twice. Um and so that always goes to property owners that are updated on the uh Tom Green County Appraisal District. And so that's a very high cost for us to continue to do. we're happy to do it if that's necessary to move it forward. But again, I don't know how much of the actual language is going to change unless there's some different uh desire or you all have strong direction to change language from this group um moving forward. So really in actuality the two months wouldn't be two months. It would be 2 months of citizens being able to digest and probably four to 6 months before we can rejoin together and make a decision. It it is very possible that it would be drawn out more than two months. Sorry. No, you're fine. But I think when when it came down to the timing of requesting the timing was mainly and correct me if I'm wrong. I think it was the museum or the SAMA that's trying to make sure that they would stay within their same eligibility. So

[2:28:27] I I think um you know to to your point and and Erin you mentioned earlier um I I if there were questions about specific issues in the ordinance as it's been presented um I think I could support and get on board with adding additional time to consider it. Um, I just to to your point, I don't know what's going to change other than um time. Um, I think it, you know, there's been a great deal of time and input from the community put into this up to this point. Um, and there's been a lot of negotiation and concessions made. Um, and I and personally, my biggest concern is the is the residential areas. I've mentioned several times and and I think that's been addressed. So, that's kind of where I'm at on on the delay. I I just I don't know what it's going to accomplish, honestly. I mean, I think everyone seems to be supportive of it. Um, so if there were specific questions, I would Luke, if I may, before you vote, planning commission, if you push Thomas two, three, four months. I'm sorry, Harry. He says you can't. Well, it's just because the law requires the planning commission make a recommendation to council. I think it's very important just um to allow them to have that time to deliberate um without council input if we may comment I was going to make is going to have four new people up here in two months. Yep. Understand. Can you pull the map back up to shows the zoning please? So, there's a pink area up uh it's on Oak Street. It's right across from the Museum of Fine Arts. Correct. Yes, sir. So, how would this change that property

[2:30:30] or those properties? Right now, that area is CGCH and so it would essentially take away the heavy commercial uses. Um most of those are operating as office warehouses right now. There's an electrical company. A few of them are just simply warehouses. Uh so we don't think it would change significantly. Um but what's under heavy commercial that could move in there if we left it if we didn't do anything if we left it. Uh you could do large truck sales like 18 wheelers, dump trucks. You go and move those in there. Now those lots are probably not big enough for that to to make sense. Uh you could do could go in there. It could go in there. You could do automotive body repair like auto auto body parts and and do that. That's a heav heavier intense body, you know, uh spray painting and those kinds of things. Um and again, those are directly adjacent to residential right now. And they've been that way for since 2000, for 25 years. But what we would do was take that away to where they could do the heavy commercial. Correct. Correct. They would be able to do a general commercial, an office warehouse, or a neighborhood commercial use there. So it better preserves that and protects it from the heavy commercial. Correct. Correct. And just across the way where it says Love Municipal Pool, we have commercial. Yes. That's under the That's the same way. And that's a vacant fine arts museum and then the River Stage area. Yes. That we could have heavy commercial in there if we leave it alone. Yes. Okay. I I just wanted to make sure that I'm I'm I'm understanding it correctly. I thought that's what I understood. But so if we don't do anything, we leave it open to a lot of stuff, especially right there beside the museum of finance. It continues to to operate as it is today and we don't provide those protections moving forward. So again, we need to make a recommendation to city council of whether to approve approve with modifications

[2:32:31] or to decline to do anything. So I would entertain a motion from the committee. Can I ask one more question? Erin, earlier you spoke to I believe one of the concerns of the museum and I'm not going to get this right as far as the powers that they um must fall with within their alignment. The concern was that this particular plan might not be in accordance with that. But you spoke to that was kind of something that you guys had was a consideration in this. Can you just kind of reiterate what you said earlier? Yes. When we spoke with the Texas Commission uh on the Arts, St. Angelo through the Fine Arts Museum has a cultural district that they applied for and is designated slightly different boundaries. When talking through and they we sent them the information on this uh they looked through it. There is nothing that is contradictory and would impact their district. They continue to be able to operate their district, do their reertification. Uh I think they do it every 10 years. I'm not sure where they're at in that cycle. Uh, but it would not impact their standing as a cultural district for St. Angelo under the Texas Commission of the Arts. Do we have a condition slide or just this being a a zoning overlay? This is just really the the slide. Now, the two things that we've discussed is one under the establishment paragraph is striking out that last sentence that talked about underlying zoning. So, I'd ask that if you have a motion, you would make that. The second item is how do we handle the RS1 and RS2 areas? Do we keep them RS1, RS2? And if we do, then I would also ask you make a decision on the short-term rentals in th those two areas. Say they follow the residential short-term rental

[2:34:35] rules or they follow the commercial. I'm sorry again about what exactly needed to be struck through. I apologize. Under the establishment paragraph, there's a sentence to strike through that talks about underlying zoning. We're striking that sentence as it does not apply. And then the other would be on making a decision on the RS1 area up here off of Baker and the RS2 area between Avenue A and the alleyway of Avenue D. Okay. So again, are we leaving them RS1 and RS2 or are we moving them to RM1? Correct. That is the question. I just want to make sure I brains on the same board. So, just to just to hit this again and correct me if I'm wrong, Erin, but on on the difference between those two options, so leaving them RS1 versus going RM RM1 STRs are allowed by right. Correct. If we kept the same residential zoning in place as it is today, they would be subject to all the restrictions of STRs as they are in any other neighborhood. Okay. So 500 feet um all the other uh requirements. That is correct. And then under RM1, could Brenda have her beauty shop in No. No. Okay. Just needs it. Wheels are turning. Joe, can you go ahead and make a motion on the spot? Britney, was I getting off? I I'm trying. Um, you know, as I mentioned in my previous statement, I, you know, I truly don't know by delaying this what actually will be changed. I understand it will give

[2:36:41] people um an understanding of what's being proposed, but ultimately what is actually going to be changed by by city staff. Um Britney, I'm sorry. Hold on. One second, Brandon. This will come back to city council for a final reading, right? Correct. Yeah. Today's just first reading. There will be a second reading. Right. So, there would be time time somewhat of a bit of time for people to understand exactly what's been approved. Okay. Yeah. And they could make public comment on it at the next meeting. So it can be pulled and discussed further. What's that time period? Yeah. What is the time period between two weeks? This joint two two more weeks. Well, it's really three because the way the calendar falls. So you'd actually be a threeweek window. You want to clarify that? Okay. Okay. Well, might be the not favored person today, but I am going to make a motion to move forward with staff's recommendation um under the establishment period or paragraph removing the underlining zoning portion of that. Um, as far as how we handle RS1 and RS2, um, I personally believe that especially over in the the Baker area, um, in past meetings, we've had a lot of interest in some abandoned homes or whatnot, um, in order to turn those into STRs. I think that's a great little neighborhood to be able to do that in. So, I would be in favor of reszoning our RS1 and RS2 to the RM1 zoning. Um, allowing short-term rental usage. You okay? Motion from Britney. Does anybody have a second? A second. Have a motion and a second. I'll uh call a vote. All those in favor of Britney's

[2:38:46] motion uh please signify by saying I. I opposed. Okay. So that motion uh passes. Thank you chairman. And now, mayor, uh, that recommendation is to you with a 70-0 vote with the alterations of striking the statement in the establishment paragraph for underlying zoning. The RS1 and RS2 zoning districts would still stay residential, but they would be raised to RM1, allowing short-term rentals by right. I'm not going to try to repeat that myself. So, I hope everyone was listening and understood everything that Aaron and Britney said because it's um what they said is one and the same. That's what we will be considering today is a city council and it is um now um an opportunity for this city council to make a motion for approval. Clarification first. We had a statement maybe two hours ago that said that we were not going to allow commercial in RS1 and RS2. If we're going to change it to RM2, does that mean commercial by right can go in there? No, it cannot. It is a residential district. It only allows single family structures, two family structures, and low-rise family structures. It does not allow commercial. that the bottom line is I can't do hair. Well, that I make the motion that the planning commission made to approve this uh striking the one sentence and moving RS1 RS2 to the RM2 uh qualifications. R1 R1 RM1. That's why I said we'll just take what they said, okay, so we get it right. Is there a second? Ma'am, it's obvious the cards are on the table. I think we know how everybody feels about this. No, Larry, we're No, not yet. I'm asking for a

[2:40:52] second. I'll second it. So, there's a motion and a second to Britney's motion and planning commission's passing 7 to zero. Now, if you'd like to make a comment, you may do so. out again. The cards are on the table. It's also an imperative that we get this thing done. I understand that. But there's a community of people out there that I don't know that they had uh an opportunity to voice their opinions as this planning was going on. I know it's been 10 years. That's a long time. But I don't know I don't feel as though we should rush now to the finish line without doing it properly. We have a history of not attending townhouse meetings. We can have a lot of them. We announce a lot of them. We send how many notices? How many? Over 450 for this area. Twice. So, any other comment from council? I'll go back and say what I said a little while ago. You push this two months. There's four new people up here in the council. those individuals are going to have to be educated and so this probably will be 6 to 8 months before it could ever pass up here. I'm not suggesting that you can't wait but the bottom line is those people need the opportunity to understand what this is all about too and a lot can happen. I have a comment. Yes, Lucy. I would like to say um I've heard it. I've I've uh supported as well like everyone else. But I do believe that when our constituents come to us and say we want more time and it's not anything that we have to have a rush on. Um, one thing that I need to ask you, Aaron, if someone came and wanted to do something in this area, would they be approved

[2:42:57] right away or would you put them on hold till we made a decision? Well, the ordinance doesn't take effect until the second reading, until it's finally law. And so, it would have to be law at that time. So in between this meeting and the next meeting, of course, discussions can go on if there's an opportunity or an item that needs to be revisited. Staff can make that request or a citizen might be able to make that request through that portion of the next meeting and consideration for city council at that time. But um this does not go into effect as law until the second reading is voted on. Okay. I would just like to say that uh again going back to what the people in this room today took the time to get up and come and ask us. And I know that we all have a life and we all get busy and we can't take off to go to a town hall meeting and hear what's going on. But it was pretty evident when I asked what the reaction was at the town hall meeting. And uh then I hear these people that are coming up going, "We want more time." And I don't see any reason why not give them the time. It isn't going to make that much difference. Aside that we have to do this, we have to do that, that there's going to be four new people up here. That's our job. And for that reason alone, I will be voting. No, but they have three weeks between now and the second reading, right? So, additional questions. And I think the big issue is given time on all of this, Aaron kept asking for questions. What's your issue? What's the problem? What's your challenges? What's your concern? And nothing came out. And that's one of the greatest concerns is time doesn't always resolve if you don't come forward and bring forward your questions and concerns. And um I think sometimes hesitation can create a scenario that's not positive

[2:45:01] and um can create problems down the road. Just my personal opinion. So with that, we have a motion and a second. Any other questions or comments from council? All right. So there's a motion and a second. We will take a vote. All those in favor of the motion on the floor say I. I. I I I So, it's three to three. So, what do we do on a tie? Uh, you could entertain the other motion, but that one doesn't pass. So, is there another motion that someone who said nay would like to bring forward? Brandon, can we entertain the same motion with a hard stop on the time limit that the public has to question and educate themselves? Well, Karen, we have three weeks between now and the next meeting. So, you have three weeks. It can be pulled from public comment. I mean, pulled from the consent agenda at that point in time and those questions can come back up again and be discussed. Correct. Yeah. I'm just I'm not sure if you're suggesting you would pass it today and then I'm not clear on the only person that had a specific time request was Bri if I recall correctly. Um I I think I'm asking can we pass it with that specific time request honored. It shouldn't go on indefinitely. For those who don't know, I did work on the task force and I am in favor of this and I would like to vote yes today, but I also agree with the voices in the room, Candi uh and others who have pointed out that our job is to serve the community and be their advocates and they they have asked for this. Now, it bears repeating that Erin sent out 450 notifications twice. So, I'm not sure

[2:47:06] what more we can do. We I'm willing to do it in a very short period of time. Perhaps the mayor's right. Perhaps three weeks is is what we allow. I'm just asking the question, excuse me, if if that's worth doing or matters much. I think a lot of SAMA's questions and concerns have been addressed. Is that correct? I think talking with the Texas Commission on the Arts that resolve those issues about these separate districts, if you will. Uh we believe it has. Uh we've looked into it extensively. They've looked the Texas Commission on the Arts has the information and looking at the government code, it talks about how to establish a district which our fine arts museum has done through the Texas Commission on the Arts as their district. What we are getting hung up on is the naming of the district. If we had named this the Heritage District, there would never be a question between what's going on. But we we have had a cultural district for a long time and we we decided this is the expansion of what's called a cultural district which is a zoning overlay and a design district does not impact their fine arts their Texas art uh commission on the arts cultural district uh in any way. So, at this point, um, mayor, yes, Tommy, let me make let me make a comment. Um, with a 33 vote, what that means is, or another thing that means is it's delayed for three more weeks until we have the seventh council member back. So, we then you got three weeks either way. Well, nope. Yeah. So, by doing this joint meeting, we didn't have to send statutory notices out to all the affected properties. Now, Aaron already did that as a courtesy um for those town hall meetings, but having this joint

[2:49:11] meeting makes it where we don't have to do that. We published the notice. Um, if you're suggesting that now that uh planning commission has voted, but then you take it up separately for a hearing, I think we probably would have to send out notices to do that because the joint meeting is what gets us around that. Okay. May I ask if um I go back to council and ask for another vote that we take another vote. Uh we have a motion and a second we take another vote with the idea that it can be pulled from the consent agenda next goound and brought up any additional questions or concerns people have and bring back as a vote. Can we do that? Karen, you want to make that motion to do that? Oh my goodness. How do I say that? Just like I said it. So I got a qu hang on a procedural question. Uh, Brandon, can we vote on the very same thing again? The very same motion that was made. Is that is that a Robert's rules of order thing? Can you vote on the very same motion again just because it didn't pass? I mean, if you've considered new uh or had new consideration. Uh, yeah, I think you can. Um, I I don't know what the condition still is going to be. Um, as far as the next meeting, I mean, that's always allowed for council to pull something off consent agenda and um, you know, take it up in a public hearing. So, that's not changing. Brandon, if we have a situation at this point, if this item is actually approved by council uh, and there's three weeks in between where uh, you know, needs can be had with individuals that had questions. uh this at the next meeting 3 weeks from now uh if we had enough concern from the visitors that came and talked to Aaron uh we could very easily say at that second one say you know what we're going to deny it after having approved this time right so it'll give us an opportunity really the three weeks to have those questions answered and if anything if the item is pulled it can be

[2:51:13] denied at that point that's right and and I think if there were changes that um would bring it up to the level of like requiring notice like say the vape issue we talked about. I said, you know, that falls out of line, we would have to notice that if if it's something like that, um we're not going to be able to pass it anyways without redoing the the notices. So, I would only expect on the second reading, if we've talked with citizens, um you know, very minor changes that wouldn't rise to that level of um additional notice. But at this point it would take it would require basically an approval to get us to the next next meeting and at that point then okay. So what do you need from me? So do I go out and ask for council to make uh the same motion and ask for a second after consideration of the questions that Karen just raised? Yeah, I think it'd be appropriate to entertain a new motion. Okay. So Harry, do you want to make that motion? Whatever we just said, I'll make that. Yeah. And I'll second that same motion. So with that, we'll take a vote. All those in favor of passing this motion about what the same motion original one. Correct. Three weeks. Three week time frame and then the ability to pull it from the consent agenda and and vote again. Yeah. So, we have a motion. We have a second. We'll take a vote. Um, Tommy, hi. Harry, yes. Lucy, Nate, Karen, yes. Larry, yes. Brenda, four to one. Four to two. Sorry. Five to five to one. Five to one. And I can't count today, but the final vote is five to one. The city clerk suggested we just on the next meeting just have it on regular agenda

[2:53:16] anyways. Then we don't have to pull it. So we'll do that. Okay. So the mo motion passes 5 to one. Now we're not through because now we're going to go to 3B just when you thought you could leave. 3B is first reading and public hearing of ordinances amending the following provisions of the city code of ordinances related to signs. One, chapter 12, Planning and Development Article 12.04 signs. And two, Chapter 12, Planning and Development, Exhibit A, Zoning Ordinance, Article 4, Specific Use Standards by deleting section 420 offsite signs. And Aaron, lucky you, you're on again. Yes. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, uh, chairman of Planning Commission, uh, and city council members. This is some amendments to the sign ordinance. Our primary goal and purpose is to alleviate the moratorum that's been on off-site signs due to some court cases since 2020. Uh those have been resolved and it is time come time for our community to have a definition of what is a billboard as opposed to an off-site sign. Uh you can see our purposes here. Um that we know that billboards are important and are impactful to our community. Uh we know that heights of sign using classification of roadways allows for better transitions meaning that heights of signs don't change drastically over some of the zoning districts where we allow it to be by street classification. And then we also realize being reasonable with sign regulations can assist small businesses and regional businesses and continue to draw customers to uh bolster our community. So off-site signs is no longer being used. It is now a billboard definition. Billboards are classified as a freestanding sign over 250 square feet in size. Billboards can either be static or electronic. Static billboards um have a height by road classification, which you'll see on a slide in just a few

[2:55:19] minutes based on if they're on a local road, a collector, an arterial, or a freeway. They should be from 125 ft from a residential district boundary line. And that's specific to district boundary line, not just residential use. and then a 500t separation buffer from another billboard on the si same side of the of the roadway. These are all fairly standard um dimensions. Um and even when we get to the height, we've adopted some of the text dot um classifications for signs and billboards because they are standard and we have a lot of text dot roads in town and we're trying to streamline our signs so that when the city approves something and text approves something, they're not in conflict. This is the map that shows where billboards can be based on the road classifications. So if you look at the corridors in pink, those are the billboard corridors. And then there are other areas as you can see right up here off of Pullium, you can see two billboards have been issued. And that's based on their zoning classification. And so the zoning classification can be heavy manufacturing, light manufacturing. um I just lost my brain. Uh office warehouse and um uh heavy commercial. And so again, that's part of the reasons why we're we're looking at those zoning districts to say where is it appropriate for billboards. So we're not changing any locations of where billboards can go. We're just changing the definition. We're making sure that the distances and the heights are consistent throughout our our community. So, electronic message boards are a subcategory of either a freestanding or a roof sign or a wall sign. Uh, again, they'll be by height by road classification. Electronic message billboards should be away 125 ft from a residential district boundary line. That does not prohibit them in residential districts. It just says they should be a certain distance away. So like our

[2:57:21] schools and our churches that have um electronic message boards or they want to convert to electronic message boards, they are allowed to do that. Um we just basically say what size they can when they when they get there. Uh electronic message uh for this is billboards. I apologize. Billboards um no more than one panel per side. So you can't have all four panels being electronic message. You can only have one on one side and one on the other. If you have four panels, you can only have one on each sides that's electronic. Uh talking with the industry, um all of those do come with dimming capability and it's just a matter of programming them to dim them uh in the evening. Um as well as the same as when electronic messages come across um the um billboards themselves. So this was where the electronic signs are uh under 75 square feet. So that's a pretty good size. Again, the same transitions from there as same as the um the illumination, if you will. The the nets is an illumination trying to dim it down after the after daylight hours. Um particularly if you're around a residential area, sign height. So, if you recall back to our our lots of zoning classifications between Abe and Coenheim, each one of those zoning classifications has a different sign height. And that can be very challenging as a driver going through there and trying to pick out signs where this would standardize on the road classification. So, if you're a local road or collector street, you'd be have a maximum height of 25 ft. If you're an arterial street, you'd have a maximum height of 45 feet and freeways and designated US highways is 50 feet. And those those designations match the text dot designations for height u for those things. And so we're trying to stay consistent with that so that if folks are looking to do things and of course we have text roads that come in, we while we can have a more strict

[2:59:25] height, it just doesn't seem to make sense for our community at this time. Why don't we go ahead and utilize something that they know they're going to get approved at Tex dot because probably they've already been to text dot and maybe have gotten it approved. So, we're trying to stay consistent with that. Our overlay districts, um, again, we talked about that just a little bit. No freestanding sign shall exceed 30 feet in height or 75 square ft and set forth in the regulations. Billboards are prohibited and in no case shall a variance be allowed. Electronic message signs are limited to 15 square feet prohibiting okay shall um such a sign be in the historic district historic overlay properties. The 3x5 which is 15 square f feet. We looked at a number of our churches in our historic district that have those as well as Fort Koncho Elementary and that is a pretty standard size for them to do their electronic messaging on. And we do say that all banners require an approval from design and historic review commission uh or their design based on our banner size. Those can all be done administratively so that we can turn those around very quickly. And banners are are items that are secured to a structural wall or a fence as opposed to banners that may be on say an A-frame that turns into a temporary sign. And that's different. They still have to be reviewed by design and historic review, but they fall under a different category. I talked really fast on that. So, I know you may have some questions, planning commission and city council, but um let me get to my recommendation and then we'll have some discussion. So, my recommendation is to have approval of article 12.04 signs and amending the sign ordinance and amending section 420 of the zoning ordinance, eliminating that section and leaving it in reserve. through the discussions, through our town hall meetings, with the signed ordinance um folks, with the industry, even with our committee. Um we think that there is an opportunity to continue the discussion about portable signs,

[3:01:27] temporary signs, and sign permit fees. Continue that discussion to bring back some recommendations in the future. not putting a timeline on it, but us to keep doing that because in those meetings, it was very clear that the sign industry that shows up, they're they're fine with having ordinance or rules. They want to know what they are. They want to do it right, but they say there's some conflicts in there of, well, you could have a portable sign that's the same size as a temporary sign, and I've got to pay a permit, but this one doesn't have to pay a permit. And I think we need to look at those to make sure that we're making sense all the way across the board so that we're not hindering one industry or or skewing to one type of sign or the other. How do we really want this to to work? As well as look at our signed permit fees, which in our budget cycle, we do that periodically. Uh and they did ask the sign industry said we need to look at those and we're happy to look at those. And so that's really just kind of a at from a staff request just getting that direction or feedback saying yes, please continue look looking and working. We're not going to set necessarily a timeline to say we got to come back in 6 months, but we want to continue working with that industry and that group to make sure that we're helping our community. The sign industry cares about what our community looks like. They really do. We heard that loud and clear at the town halls. They're concerned about the folks that just aren't simply doing it. They're not coming for permits. they're just going and putting things up. Sometimes it's business owners that just don't know that there are sign regulations and they buy something off of a website and go and place it. And so I think it gives us some opportunity as staff to help educate our community about what really is what constitutes a sign, where it should be, and how big. So with that, I turn it over to you, Luke, for you guys to ask me any questions from the planning commission side. And then so just to clarify, you're not asking for specific recommendation or making a recommendation on portable versus temporary. We just want to correct. We did not change any of that ordinance language in the ordinance. It stays the same. We only change those items for billboards,

[3:03:31] electronic message signs, and electronic billboards. Can I just ask that we warm this facility up a bit? We are freezing. It's hard to concentrate when you're shaking. So, if we could just warm this room up a bit, it would be greatly appreciated. Yes. Sorry for interruption, but we're freezing. I was going to Sorry. I was going to hit just the highlights to recap everything as I got as I caught it. So, basically, we're proposing is to remove off-site definition. Yes. Find billboards of anything 250 square feet or over. Um the I guess prohibition on residential non-residential school districts and churches are allowed. Um and height is no longer going to be based on zoning district which I think makes some sense as we just looked at there's some districts. Yeah. Makes it really odd to have you know basically two signs next to each other. one can correct. That is the gist of it. Yes, sir. And I do say we had a great committee that worked and the industry helped us a lot. We actually um one of the industry folks, Doug Cooper, uh actually helped me a lot on the billboards. I think he's here to speak today. So, I just want to say my appreciation to him and the sign committee. Signs are very challenging. They're always a can of worms when you open them up. and we tried to keep the lid on as much as we could just to solve what we needed to solve. And I I really appreciate everybody's effort on it. Thank you all for reaching out and getting the experts involved in other communities so we can be consistency. Okay, this might be a silly question, but for instance, on a gas station, if they've got um the gas prices highlighted and then underneath have, you know, a rotating sign, is that two plus their name or No, the pricing is not an actual sign. It's only really if

[3:05:33] they're advertising their location, if you will, to say, you know, this business here. Um, and it then it depends on whether it's a freestanding sign, a wall sign, a roof sign, and there's certain allowances per linear footage. We're not changing any of those things and so they're still the same as they've always been. Okay. And then as far as current billboards, um they would be grandfathered in unless destroyed, damaged. That is that is correct. But I would say I would say I would say nonconforming as opposed to grandfathered. But that's what I would say. Perfect. And then la last one. Um this was oh my goodness, it might have been a year and a half ago. Um the quick uh quick hint that went up on North Bryant. Um we had a lot of debate and discussion in that meeting based on I believe the sign size. Has the sign size changed since then or was it because they had Quick Ken Huddle House and then the other underneath it? Are you talking the one at the far north of town? Yeah, North North Bryant. I'm trying to think of that, but I think it had to do with sign size and the linear footage of their frontage. Okay. So, got it. 0 to 199, you can have one freestanding sign. If you're over that, you can have two. And then there's increments in there. But the new proposal, it does not change any of those dimensions or distances. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Do they have any you um I'll keep my mouth shut for a minute and I know you'll be happy. So, uh it's in your hands to go ahead and take a motion. I have public comment on this. I believe we have some. Yes. Yes. Monica Ramos. All right, I'm back. I don't know

[3:07:35] if my comment will actually um fall into place with this since the additional requests are kind of more to the concerns that I was going to raise. I did um serve on this sign committee and the concerns that we had were or that I have personally was the flags and the banners as far as how long they can be up. I understand that there was some concerns at the town hall meeting about being supportive of small businesses. However, I think the time frame that we've allotted is conducive for a small business to have a temporary sign, but then have the funds to have a a nicer sign in place. Um, I know I'm a little biased with downtown, but in terms of thinking of all of St. Angelo, the congestion of seeing so many banners or bow flags, which those are kind of popular right now, and having that limited um signage is something that we do need to look at and take into consideration. So again, not sure my comments actually are for right now. It might be for those additional requests that we discussed, but thank you. You might ask, define a banner. What's the size? What's the scope? Because we put up banners that say this historic building was or is. That's a banner. But we need a better I think Luke I don't know but I think we just need clarification on what bann various banners and what they are and and I think there's been there's a lot of discussion around that and it kind of bleeds over into portable and temporary as well and so really in our definitions that have been there a put my glasses on so I can read a piece of cloth paper plastic or non other non- rigid material upon which a message is printed uh painted printed or a fixed. And then there's a section that talks about where banners are allowed and what their sizes are. Um, and so I think that is for further discussion so that we can narrow down what that really means in scope so that our our community understands that

[3:09:38] as well. Um, so when when we talk about flags like American flag and Texas flag, those things are allowed. Then we're talking about those flags that you used to see at like maybe uh automotive um sales places or you see the one that kind of comes up and curves over. That's called a bow flag or a feather flag. We see a lot of those. The the real challenge is are those temporary? Most of them end up in the right ofway which is not allowed by any sign uh unless it's a state or city sign that should be there. Um and so those are the the challenges that we have forward. But I do think that's more of an education issue and our sign industry is is they want to be helpful in that manner. And so I think that's why having the future discussions with them to find out well what is the best way to communicate with our business owners and other sign companies that may not be aware of what the rule regulations are. How do we all work together? Other questions for city staff? Well, I don't know. I forgot to push the No. Is that the mayor's discretion? Susan Mertz. May I defer and have science go first, please? Okay. Uh, Michael Martinez. Morning council. Good morning. Um I'm Mike Martinez. I'm with Fast Signs and um we've been in the business for almost 20 years. Myself individually, us is 13. Um we're fortunate. We sell a bunch of electronic message centers and we've done it for quite a while. Um the one thing that I would ask that you guys do is protect the investment of those that they've already made the investment as well as those that are looking at making a substantial investment. Everything about what you guys are mending is great

[3:11:40] except the 8 second hold. There is a difference between video, animation, and static. And I would look that we make that definition between animation and video to make that very clear what that is because most people go and get an electronic message center for the fact of being able to capture someone's attention and deviate from someone else. Um, we do have a lot of challenges as we drive our vehicles. we've all as a society learned to navigate that. So, um I would love to sit down and talk to folks about what animation is versus video. Um and we can do that. Um the other thing that he kind of talked about were city permits. We're all for city permitting. Um but we all do want to get on a regular playing field. It is very difficult. Um we're fortunate. We work throughout all the state of Texas. So, we're very very um knowledgeable in other city ordinances and policing is probably one of the biggest things that we see in St. Angelo that we do not do a very good job of. Um essentially, US citizens have to police ourselves. And I will tell you for one, I will never turn in another business for messing up. Just won't do it. It doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong. But the fact is, we pay a fee. We should find some sort of policing. Um, we actually took a client in uh, Brown County, which is Round Rock. We put up a temporary uh, banner for them. We had 30 days to build a new signage forum. On the 31st day, the uh, Brown County called and ask when that banner is coming down. It was a $50 fine for every single day that was up. So, like I said, um, just be on an equal playing field when it comes to the permitting. And um but everything else, like I said, is looks great. It conforms with a lot of what you see throughout the state, but just protect the investment of those message centers because they're not cheap. Those businesses are making a substantial investment in the community. They do use a lot of those message centers to give to 5013C's, nonprofits, or just give recognition to students throughout the

[3:13:42] uh uh county that do deserve some recognition. So, like I said, that's my only request that we really look at that before we accept it. Thank you. Susan Mertz. My name is Susan Mertz and I believe that this new siden ordinance has been welldeveloped by city planning. I also sat on the group that worked on this. Uh, but I do have a concern. Section 12.04.005 sign regulation section 3 C2 where prohibited. Say those numbers all over again. I know. I know. I just want to make sure. Um, would you please consider adding the Nickerbacher corridor into that uh area where signs are prohibited? Uh, the reason I'm asking this is because it was in the ordinance originally and was taken out by John James. Uh, one of my concerns is that Nickerbacher is a visual quarter that is taken in by Retoyo, ASU, the football stadium, and the Shannon Medical Center where a proliferation of new signs in the nonresidential areas will occur with this new ordinance. A particular concern is the area beginning at the red Oreo where there already is a billboard there at shirts to the uh neighborhood Walmart. The concern concern should be an explosion of large digital or non-digital billboards in this area. This is a highly congested area that needs no more visual distractions by St. Angel's notoriously distracted or bad

[3:15:47] drivers. I'm certainly one of those. And digital billboards are designed to catch your attention. Let's keep Nickerbacher clear and put it in the area where they're prohibited. Another is section 12.04.006 006 section E se sorry section three E the last sentence where the petition by property owners within 500 ft uh by uh it's according to code compliance and to me this does not give residents the ability to have more exemptions within these codes and uh as was said earlier, the dimming is only 100 ft. Well, if you live in a residential district that is say 6 to 700 ft, that sign is still pretty bright and so we would ask that the dimming take place in an area further than 100 ft. Also, uh there is a 500 ft restriction about where uh these signs are uh or neighbors and Oh, okay. Thank you. finish that sentence. Uh well my concern was that I feel like that ne uh the surrounding businesses and residential areas residential areas especially need to extend into that because 150 ft is not very big and you could literally go like concentric farming 150 ft 150 ft 150 ft 150 ft. Thank you. You bet. Thank you all very much. Oh, I guess Luke, you should be saying that, not me. Sorry. That concludes public comment. Um, so could you expand a little bit on

[3:17:53] what Mr. Martinez mentioned about Got an 8sec hold discussing video animation. Yes. Yes. And that came up at the last town hall meeting and we we've made had a discussion and was looking for a definition that we could include in there that would meet what they were looking for. We have not been able to find the right one. So, I think staff would be willing to work with Mr. Martinez uh and get something in the ordinance between now and the next reading to allow for that type of animation. And it's really kind of a scrolling animation that you would see that uh you know student A is on on roll and that kind of thing that you would see on those electronic message boards um where it talks about that if you've got a an image it should stay there for a certain period of time and should then move quicker than two seconds. It shouldn't drag across. And so I think we can look at that and come up with a definition and make that amendment between now and the next reading. I need a closed public comment. So if there any other discussion or u a motion I have a question about the temporary signs. So, like a nail salon that has the banner that's across the top. By changing this, is that making every single one of them have to go and buy and invest or are they No, we're not changing any of that language as of right now. That's for future discussion to see how that um how those banner signs that are attached to a structure. Should we change that in any way or not? We are not changing that through this amendment today. Okay. I think um to expand on that a little bit, at

[3:19:58] least for as far as what I know, um there there is some overlap between what you could consider to be a portable sign and a temporary sign. One of them there is a fee, a permit fee, and the other one there's not. Um and so those need to be just better defined. And I think that's what you know Erin's correct posing here is that that be further developed and defined in the code. Yeah. And just like Mr. Martinez says, how do we make a level playing field for all and so that everybody's following the same rules and not penalizing one group over another? And so we just need to really look at that. As y'all know, the sign ordinance is a big document. It's 18 pages or so and lots of its definitions and it's been added to over the years. And so I think it really need needs the right amount of time. What we're doing today is solving that moratorum which we had six months to solve and get a billboard definition. And I think that's what we're moving forward with. Having sat on the committee uh for the sign ordinance, I understand most of it pretty well. So, I'd like to make a motion to approve uh the sign ordinance in amending section 420 of the zoning ordinance and um uh with the continued discussion uh of portable signs, temporary signs, and sign permit fees at another time. I'll second. Okay. Uh I have a motion and a second on the table. Um all in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Passes 70. Okay, I guess that's us. Yes, ma'am. All right. So, um once again, uh we are considering the um following the planning commission 70 uh 2 4 6 7 to 0 vote in support of what has been presented uh on this sign ordinance. So,

[3:22:02] I'm going to open it up for consideration from city council. I'd like to know if you have further questions or comments to add to this motion, Larry. Yes, ma'am. I do. Um, and this is personal experience on flag. What about obscenities? As far as I can tell, it's first amendment rights. Gone out and tried to get someone to take a sign down. I was I was asked to just leave the property and the lawyers tell me I've I can't do anything about it. So, I'd like to know what in why have a flag portion of that if it's uh all-encompassing and whatever a person wants to put on it. I started off asking questions about Back the Blue, whether you could have that up there, but and and other so on so on, but uh Brandon was nice enough to tell me that you really have no restrictions on it whatsoever. Although we don't like it. I hate it. I'm not sure there's anything we can do about it. One would be the placement. The second would be the verbiage. you know, my um biggest and this is kind of a statement um but it sort of supports what Susan Merch said and that is, you know, text dot consistently talks about safety and we worry about uh cell phones. We worry about distractions as we drive. Well, very often signs are those very distractions that create accidents and particularly when there's a lot of flashing language or changing pictures or distractions. And I I know that text dot has certain rules and regulations. I know we have to follow state law, but I also know I mean we watch the television every night or some people Facebook whatever and the

[3:24:06] number of accidents we have on a regular basis is all about distraction and yet as a business owner I want the ability to promote my business and tell other people hey here I am come in and visit me but I don't want somebody reading my sign and then um running to the back end of another car. So I get very concerned about um signage and relativity to safety and everybody reading trying to you know look at reading the sign versus going through the green light. It is a distraction and but I don't know that we can do anything about that. And then I'm also very protective of our neighborhoods and I want to make sure that if there's um if you live in a neighborhood and you look out your front window, you don't want to see the flashing sign from a street two blocks up. And maybe part of that's height. Maybe part of that is uh intensity of light. Um but it is concerning. But most importantly, I'm concerned about the safety and distraction driving. And we talk about it all the time. And I'm on a daily basis, we have distraction driving. And a lot of it is reading signs left and right and in front of you or whatever. So that's just my comment. That's all. Yes. Uh per your comment, mayor, I I found it very interesting the suggestions and opinions offered by Susan Mertz. Um, but pursuant to your most immediate comment, does this Brandon, does the state have guidelines governing dimming boundaries where a commercial area abuts a residential area? There's nothing universal. Uh, we did look at other cities and what they had. Um, ours is at uh, I believe 125 ft for distances and then 100 ft on the dimming. Um, that's pretty standard with most of the other communities around.

[3:26:09] There are some communities that don't have that at all. Um, and so we're at least getting started somewhere with our illumination and trying to get it to dim over time. Um, obviously we do have in our nuisance code about light that transpass goes past your property line, which is hard to measure and sometimes can be subjective, but that that is an area that we have to continue to work on as a community and find things that are protecting our neighborhoods. Um, and I think some of our major corridors are right by major neighborhoods and that can be challenging when you have zoning that allows very high in uses and some of the lots are large and so you may have multiple signs allowed and if those are illuminated or electronic message then there's going to be light spill over into a neighborhood area that's very close to those areas. So, I think that comes down to some neighborhood uh planning uh some corridor planning um where this this amendment today really solves a short-term issue that we've been with off-site on-site, but I think we still have some work to do with our sign ordinance to uh continue to improve it for our community. So, you're suggesting we can continue to discuss that? Yes. Going forward because for reference, 100 feet is not very far. How long is this room, for example? I mean, it's probably close to 100 feet. I make that assumption. So, I I think her concern is entirely justified. Yes, ma'am. Particularly if it's illuminated and it's flashing. Yes. You know what's also distracting is like one's at 25 ft, one's at 50 feet, one's at 75 ft. They all can kind of come together at any given corner, right? Or looking down the highway. Well, that that's why we're changing the height based on the road classification. And so if you're thinking about an arterial, which Nickerbacher is an arterial, so the idea of a higher height is your speed is probably faster on that arterial and

[3:28:12] then you can identify that sign further down the road. You're not waiting to see something that's lower and trying to stop quickly and turn in. Now, the challenge is how many properties do we have along there that have signs uh because how they're cut up and other things like that. And then if you're in a local or a collector street, that sign height should be lower because your speed limit should be lower so you're slowing down looking for those signs so they don't become as distracting as they could be. Um, every driver is different. Every driver should pay attention to kind of what's going on. But we all would a should have could have, should have, could have. Yes. Um, so that's that's always a challenge, but working with our operations department and working with uh text dot and even the sign industry, looking at some of the standards that some of the other cities have put together, we feel like we're in line with those standards right now. Define the difference between Necrobacera Road and Sherwood Way. Well, they're both arterials under our master thoroughfare plan. Uh, both are text controlled roads. one just happens to have a lot more lanes. Um, I may go to Let me see if I can Excuse me just a second. Are you sure we can't warm this facility up because it is so cold? So here on this billboard map you can see where just past Ardan Road past right about the red AOYO Sherwood way allows billboards through there out to the city limits where Nickerbacher Road they're not allowed by right unless it matches one of the zoning districts that I mentioned of light commercial heavy commercial and um heavy manufacturing. There were some properties along here that had that. That's why you see some of the billboards around the uh railroad crossing over Nickerbacher. They had the right zoning, but it is not the right corridor to add billboards. So, even going out towards the lake, it is not

[3:30:15] unless the zoning is there, you wouldn't be allowed to add a billboard. where on loop 306 and the other purple areas, you could add a billboard no matter what the zoning is as long as you meet the separation distances. Thank you for the visual. So based on your comment, u Miss Mertz's other concern was the corridor on Nickerbacher between Reo and the neighborhood Walmart. Can you merge those two things together? That's a little harder for me to understand. Yes. So, right in here is about where the Red Royo is. Um, and the Royal Trail and then going south towards the uh neighborhood Walmart that's here just south of I think maybe Southland. I could be wrong on the street. Um, Valley View, thank you. um that area right now is not allowed a billboard on a corridor. If the zoning is a light manufactured zoning, a heavy manufactured zoning, office warehouse, or heavy commercial, it could allow a billboard based on the linear frontage. Many of those properties are there are some that are CGCH, so that's a little concerning. Most of them are CG or other districts that are not allowing billboards. Larry. Yes, Mayor. I understand your position on flags, but I'd like to get a legal reading on this. I didn't give a position on the flags. Don't like them. No, I didn't say that. No, that didn't come out of my mouth. So on regulating the content of flags, anytime you're regulating content, um you're subject to strict scrutiny um under the case law. And in order to prevail over strict scrutiny, you have

[3:32:17] to have a very good reason to do that. And in most cases, the city can't justify a reason to regulate content like that. Um the whole reason we're here about the on-site offsite that was brought up by um contentbased restrictions because you're having to read the sign um in order to regulate it. And that came down to actually allow that distinction. Um but we found in operating for the past four years that it's really worked out not having that and we really needed to focus on billboards. So, um, like the mayor was talking about, time, place, and manner restrictions, dimensional restrictions, those are all things you can regulate, um, that don't go towards content, but if they're at varying heights, may distract drivers. Um, those are the things you want to focus on, um, regulating. Lucy, please. Uh, I just went was thinking about this. I think the mayor had brought it up before with the jolly green. Are those still those arms? Yeah, there you are. Go ahead. Those are called air activated signs. They are still prohibited. We have not changed. They're prohibited. They're prohibited. We see some seen some. Yes, I have too. Uh I know that our uh code people are working with some folks to change their habits. Um, and they're also trying to find the people that, you know, when they're up and sometimes they're very smart and like, well, I'll put this up on Saturday. Yeah. So, yeah, we're they are working through it and they're they're trying to do the best they can. Thank you so much. Where can those men with moving arms be located outside the city limits? They they are prohibited within the city currently under the current ordinance that has been that way for many years. So, we think that's distracting. Yes. But other things not just asking or just saying our our current ordinance sees them that way. We did not touch

[3:34:19] that as of right now. I think that's possibly part of the discussion. I'm not a big personally I'm not a big fan of those types of signs because they tend to be very acutely odd and really do get people distracted. as opposed to something that's scrolling up across a static um square or rectangle. Um but I think that is for future discussion to let's keep that discussion going. What about if I'm a person and I have a costume on and my arms move and I'm walking? What is that? So, so many of y'all know I can be very snarky. However, so we've gone way away from what this particular is. I'd like to make a motion to support what the planning commission uh voted on. I'll second that. No, just 30 minutes ago. Motion and a second. Public comment. Any more? done. Any other questions or comments from council on this issue? But I didn't get my um statement answered, so just FYI, let's take a vote. All those in favor of passing the motion as presented say I. I. Passes 6. That concludes our joint meeting with the planning commission. I thank you all for your time. Well, y'all want to do another one, guys? They're they're all going to they're all going to reach out. Thank you for the questions, the being, you know, being here with us to help solve some issues. It's greatly appreciated. Thank you. Hey, Luke, do you want to adjourn? We need an official motion to adjourn. I don't think I adjourn mine, right? Had uh several. So, um yeah, meeting all over again. So, I need a motion for adjourning the city

[3:36:21] council meeting. There's a motion. There's a second. Is there a vote? Yes. Yes. If you'd like to journ. We're going to take another break. This will be 10 minutes.

Captured 2026-07-26 · source: youtube.com/watch?v=EVjDOLiywqI