San Angelo City Council 1-17-23

[0:00:00] Tuesday of January the 17th we'll call this meeting to order we will start with our usual chaplain prayer and pledges and I think we have Gary Marcella Jenkins here to lead us in both sorry mayor and members of the council and everyone would you please join with me Father in heaven in the name of Jesus we bow before you to say thank you for this day and for everything that you have done are doing and about to do as we assemble here today to take on the business of the city we seek your face and your counsel for guidance and for wisdom we pray that that which is needed to be done for the city will be done with a spirit of Excellence father we thank you for living in a great City like San Angelo we ask you now in Jesus name to bless our members of the city council our mayor and we pray that you bless each and every one that's here today in Jesus name amen honor the Texas flag I pledge allegiance to the Texas we have one Proclamation today so I would ask I know we have a lot of school board members here if you would please

[0:02:02] come forward as we read this Proclamation or anyone that's here please come forward the mission of public schools is to meet the diverse educational needs of all children and to empower them to become competent productive contributors to our society and an ever-changing World our San Angelo ISD board members are committed to the children of San Angelo and believe all children can be successful lifelong Learners and that the best education is tailored to the individual needs of each child to support each child's hopes and dreams this distinguished group of servant leaders includes board president Mr Max Parker vice president Mr Bill dindle secretary Mr Gerard Gallegos Treasurer Dr Taylor Kingman Miss Mrs Amy Mizell Flint Miss Pam Duncan Ms Lupita arroya saisd board members work closely with parents educational professionals and other community members to create the educational Vision we want for our students they are responsible for ensuring the structure that provides a solid foundation for our school system and dedicate numerous unpaid personal hours to support and Lead our San Angelo schools our San Angelo ISD school board members are strong advocates for public education and are responsible for communicating the needs of the school district to the public and the Public's expectations to the district therefore I Brenda Gunter mayor of the city of San Angelo Texas on behalf of the city council declare our appreciation to the members of the San Angelo Independent School Board and proclaim the month of January 2023 as school board recognition

[0:04:07] month in San Angelo Texas and urge all citizens to join us and San Angelo ISD in recognizing the dedication and hard work of the F of the Fai ISD school board members and to partner with them to mold an education system that meets the needs of both today's and to Mars children and produces Future Ready graduates thank you all for what you do and I know someone's going to have some words you're going to do okay thank you thank you mayor Gunter as she said this month is School Board recognition month which serves to recognize the hard work and dedication as school board members have on communities especially our seven saisd school board members they work hard to ensure that our students have access to everything they need to be Future Ready graduates so we have several of our school board members here with us I'm going to introduce them so we have Miss Pam Duncan Miss Lupita Arroyo Miss Amy mizelle Flint Mr Gerard Gallegos and Mr Bill dindle we're missing president Max Parker and Dr Taylor Kingman who couldn't be here this morning to for other obligations and we also have members of our saisd team here so we have superintendent Dr Carl detloff in the crowd we have Deputy superintendent Farrah Gomez and we also have Becky Hopkins and Pam Blair but we want you to join us in thanking our school board members for everything that they do for the students of San Angelo we couldn't do it without them so Mr dindle thank you Molly certainly privilege to be here this morning I want to again uh thank the city council and the city staff for recognizing us this morning I

[0:06:09] also want to thank my fellow board members for their hard work as we continue to strive to to provide the best education for the kids of San Angelo and the surrounding area as we move forward into this new year thank you very much for having us today [Applause] thank you mayor Gunner I'll just say a quick word or two first I want to thank our council members uh and uh our mayor's Proclamation it mentioned unpaid so uh these individuals on our Council and our school board care deeply about our community uh and through their philanthropy and spirit of giving they wanted what is best for not only our children but our entire community so I want to extend my thanks to all our elected officials especially our school board members this evening or this morning I also I want to highlight Molly Johnson Turk she made the opening comments uh Molly is a San Angelo native and a scisd graduate and she has now serves as our executive director of communications quickly I read in the Texas Association of school board magazines recently an article that said school boards typically function on the bees so you know if you think about the bees the buildings budgets buses perhaps bonds but the school boards that are high performing they focus on the critical C's and the critical C's are really collaboration Community Building connections that connectivity with the community and also more importantly child advocacy and I think that's what our board does so well is they really consider the child in making all of their decisions so the critical C's are really important and I'll even throw another one in their citizenship how do we create and engage kids to be incredible citizens for our future so thank you to our Council thank you mayor Gunner and thank you to the city and especially thank you to our board

[0:08:10] members because they have navigated uh choppy Waters the last four years as well as our our community members and council members and so I just want to thank you for your service to our community thank you [Applause] oh thank you before I feel a little short-handed today missing two city council members but here the rest of us so we'll try to conduct our business today being short-handed meanwhile we open up this meeting with the opportunity for public comment if you come forward for public comment please state your name and address or SMD area each citizen can speak just once per item unless asked to comment by Council the public comment must be three minutes unless extended by Council or translation services the proponent or the opponent may speak five minutes unless extended by Council or

[0:10:14] translation services Council has no obligation to respond to comments or questions from the public in a response from a member of the city council to non-agenda comments is limited to a statement of specific factual information recitation of existing policy and directing staff to place a subject on a future agenda do we have individuals in the audience today who would like to come forward and offer public comment at a mayor in city council and staff thank you for serving our town appreciate that so much good morning I am Pastor Jasper McClellan What's Left of Me cmd5 I wanted to make three suggestions concerning Street and Bridge number one in priority and in mention here I would like to congratulate the engineers or who are responsible for the work on College Hills it's very trying but I would like to congratulate them for placing a always stop sign at Oxford and collard Hills instead of a temporary traffic signal I'm a newbie to San Angelo I've only been here about 30 years but that traffic signal at Oxford and college Hills has been a nightmare for all 30 of those years it seems that the sensing mechanism never works it's always geared toward College Hills meanwhile traffic on Oxford is polluting the atmosphere just Auto idle idle it's an old story everybody say Old-Timers that when Travis school was in operation that when parents picked up their students that have one of the kids jump out of the car and go punch the walk button hoping that it would change the signal it never did I beg you when this comes is completed

[0:12:18] go with an all-way stop sign like you have on saw Ross and him up number two I am so glad that you do have a temporary traffic signal at Knickerbocker and Twin Mountain I had a couple who was T-boned at that intersection car was totaled they could have been killed please please if you can make that a permanent traffic signal at Knickerbocker and Twin Mountain and last if budget and Manpower would permit if there's any way you can put a 24 7 crew on whatever work is going on on Sherwood Way and Southwest Drive traffic backs up halfway to Ballinger I mean surely surely we can expedite that project if we have money and Manpower available thank you very much we have Tom Thompson joining us some live from somewhere and other public comment please good morning cancel Rocky templin Builder developer uh District six um I would like the city staff to review the sidewalk procedures and um whatever takes place uh sometime in the future I permitted a house last year on a lot with a parallel offset got a permit went to do the house next door with the rest of the lot and the parallel offset I could not do that they said it was going to have to go to planting so spent about two grand and did a replat and got it approved which brought up the sidewalk ordinance and then I received a waiver from Mr James and Mr pate and then on December I called for a final

[0:14:21] and I received a red tag missing sidewalk so um Mr James Mr Benoy and Zach couldn't find anything I had to produce my own waiver letter from the city of San Angelo to get it resolved in the last week I call for a final on the house next door and believe it or not um Zach said it required a sidewalk and so they were going to go out and red tag it and I believe the permit department said no let's stop this we've been through this before let's issue a green tag so somewhere between Council passing these ordinances and they're getting trickled down somebody's not doing their job so somewhere and this has not just happened to me this has happened to other builders that have tried to get finals and had sidewalk waivers or the subdivisions didn't even require a sidewalk and then they were stopped so I'd like that looked at for the future thank you or the public comment hello my name is Amy Mizell Flint I live in smd5 um thank you for Madame mayor and city council for all the work that you do in our community um I am here today as the Director of the San Angelo Clubhouse we work with people who live with mental illness and we are located on Irving Street in the river so we are right outside of we're in the downtown Corridor but right outside of downtown um and the reason that we're here today is because we have seen a large number of people who are homeless and I we've been kind of following some of the discussion that's been here um in previous months but the um our members have been really passionate

[0:16:24] about this issue because some of our members of the clubhouse are homeless and um a lot of them also have lived with homelessness themselves even if they have a home now so a couple of them wanted to come and just share a few words I told them it was limited to three three minutes or less and but I really wanted to thank you for your thoughts and concerns with this issue it's a really big issue in our area thank you guys I come here representing this could you tell us your name and where you live please oh yes I'm sorry my name is Rachel Hill and I'm here to represent the San Angelo Clubhouse um hi my name is Rachel Hill I have lived here for over five years recently I was watching an episode of Dr Phil where he was talking about homeless issues in America when I was watching it I thought I thought about it and I guess she was in California and then he said it was any issues in bigger cities in Texas while at San Angelo Clubhouse I have met several people who are homeless that had that has opened my eyes to the problem and now when I drive around San Angelo I see people under overpasses by the bus station and more what I realized is that homelessness is not just a problem in other places it's a problem right here in San Angelo I have witnessed people living in sheds outside their homes in boxes and in tents throughout our city this is Against Humanity it brings tears to my eyes to see people and families living on the streets I have been I have seen lost people have lost their kids due to homelessness because of lost jobs that

[0:18:28] is Against Humanity too the city of San Angelo has had homeless shelters has had have a homeless shelter in four years this means that for four years people who have no home no place to go when it's hot hot or cold or rainy without a place to stay even temporarily they can't even have a stable point to find a place to live permanently people need a place to live to get a job because the employer will ask for an address or a phone number for for many not having an address or a phone number means no job it's a vicious cycle people who are homeless have no no place to shower no place to use the restroom no place to store their food or a few of their belongings a homeless shelter in our community would be a chance for San Angelo families to get out of the bad situation moving people off of the streets will help our city flourish I'm begging the city council of San Angelo to find a way to help our homeless neighbors know that that you had a part in making our city a better place to live thank you very much thank you for your time for the public comment hello my name is Larry weinbin III

[0:20:33] I live as 1706 Idaho if you would please list can you talk into the mic just a little louder yes ma'am you don't need to be nervous because we're not going to do anything to scare you okay so just talk from your heart through the years I have actually seen by my eyes and actually talk to the poor people that are homeless in San Angelo I have sometimes even have Blended my pocket money by getting them food and things and I just felt so bad yes yes that they have all been suffering I have been here for seven years and it's been San Angelo has been a good home to me and when I see others in trouble I have a heart of giving and trying to help but yes a shelter would definitely help our problem in San Angelo and more it would help and benefit for the homeless around San Angelo in San Angelo to find jobs and for a few It's just sad to me to see firsthand I'm kind of getting a little worried each day by passing day

[0:22:38] I see people suffering I wanted to help them so bad but if this is the best way to help him I'd keep pushing because my heart is not only for the homeless and for those who are losing their jobs they homeless yes and I know because I used to be home homeless okay just uh you have another minute to just wrap up your thoughts city of San Angelo and Council I have known I have lived through it and it is horrible and if we work together by giving them shelter it'll give them time not only for their jobs just to work together and thank you we appreciate you coming forward thank you you're welcome further public comment if you've spoken one time you can't come forward again no ma'am further public comment good morning Madame mayor and city council my name is Benjamin Andrade and I live in single member district number three um I have been I was born and raised in single member district three so I've been here my entire life and as an adult it's definitely come to my attention as I myself have lived through it that homelessness is a very large issue in San Angelo and it's very sometimes very easily pushed under the rug and it's a lot easier without having

[0:24:41] a homeless shelter right I I was fortunate enough that there was a helping hand that reached out and I'm no longer personally going through that and so at least with a shelter people would have an an address even if it's short term but they would have an address they would have a place to shower because for the most part people don't hire people that don't shower they don't hire people without an address but just with that one Helping Hand That Could lead to a Snowball Effect and in essence help those who are currently homeless to no longer be homeless and be contributors to society so I I implore you all to to um come to some sort of agreement or something to address the issue and I think y'all very much for y'all's time good morning everyone good morning my name is Robert bowling I live in 1818 South Lincoln Street uh the wind blew me to San Angelo I came to San Angelo as a traveling wind turbine technician I was working at The Aviator wind farm in Robert Lee and uh from my hotel room the wood spring across the highway I could see this little steeple sticking up and I thought I'm looking for a church I'll start there and and see where where that leads me and I went to the West Side Baptist Church and I haven't gone anywhere since so officially I'm here from the West Side Baptist Church um

[0:26:45] over the course of uh my time there I realized I I really liked San Angelo I kind of fell in love with the city I met a lot of really good people here and I decided I wanted to stay so I got a permanent position at the wind farm uh where I was there as a a traveling Tech and got to stay in in San Angelo and I'm grateful for that um so then I moved on to my next my next plan which was to start talking to the people in the church about reaching out to the homeless and I was telling them about different things I'd done with homeless in different cities and eventually I got them to get together some hygiene bags with some socks in them and we're gonna go find the homeless and hand them out so we found a camp where uh there's a number a large number of them probably the largest concentration of homeless in San Angelo it's a camp on Bryant uh between 14 and 11th uh right by wendland uh so we go there and we're giving out the bags and my pastor pastor Joe Bourgeois asked one of the Elder Statesmen of the homeless camp what is it you all really need here what could we really do for you a dumpster what we really need is a dumpster we've got all this trash we don't know what to do with it so at the time we couldn't deliver a dumpster we didn't know an owner to get approval for that but we started bringing trailers and loading trash on trailers and Hauling it off to the landfill and we did this for about a year and then finally just about six weeks maybe two months ago we met one of the owners who happened to be at the property when we were there we've gotten permission to have a dumpster delivered we now have a dumpster there that they have people living in the camp have filled four times and every time they fill it pastor Joe calls and has it pulled and returned I understand that there is uh perhaps a trial or a hearing uh regarding the owners of the property there at the end of this month the issues being trash and some of the

[0:28:49] shelters that aren't up to code that people are living in um I know that there had been a shelter in San Angelo previously and I believe that having a shelter for homeless is within the character of the people of San Angelo and I would just like to suggest that possibly we could start need to wrap it up thank you our vision is to start a tiny home Community right there on that very same property it's a very cost effective way of housing them much better than the money that's been spent on putting people up in hotels when it got really cold so thank you for the public comment good morning my name is Brandi bill I live in smd1 I am a case manager nurse for a Managed Care Organization I can speak to the fact that I have people contact me very frequently as their case manager for their Medicaid services and they tell me that they are or soon will be homeless and they need my assistance to find a place to live I can tell you that Aunt Bertha or findhelp.com [Music] if you plug in 76903 the resources that you will find are woefully inadequate compared to other area codes in other areas the city of San Angelo without a homeless shelter causes people to seek other towns for a shelter many times Adult Protective Services reports are placed just for the inability for a person to find shelter

[0:30:53] people apply for housing assistance the housing assistance list is very long in San Angelo I have people that are currently on housing assistance lists in San Angelo in winners in Ballinger looking for a place to live San Angelo would greatly benefit from a homeless shelter thank you let me brief my name is Gary Cortese I figured I'd have a reason to be up here and kill two birds with one stone today but this has nothing to do with what's on the agenda this happens to do with the area I Libyan by goodfella on Bell Street not the new part that's been done we won't talk about that because that's a great job by the way concrete right well the older part from the from the Bell Street bridge going south towards goodfella was done and I don't know how many years ago 10 something like that but anyway the asphalt is building up around the manhole covers in the driving lane and it's about to take the front end out of people's cars it's rough okay it looks to me like uh just one particular picture here oh it's a good half inch to an inch drop from the level of the pavement and it seems like a pretty simple fix to me but we don't have to do any great studies or anything just take another manhole cover the same size and lay it over the existing one that will level it up bolt them down together with lag bolts and go on and uh good but it's right in the driving lane of your of your driver's side far Lane Tire all the sewer man holes are lined up there I could go on and make a little joke

[0:32:55] that I swerved in them the other day and got pulled over by the police because they thought I was drunk driving but we won't go there thank you for their public comment excuse me saying why District Six as I've stated here for months the city of San Angelo code of ordinances section 1204-014 legally mandates that all public signs in San Angelo meet three primary legal requirements whether anyone here likes it or not these requirements legally applied to leave pfluger's 14-story Hotel Cactus rooftop sign which is disgraced the entire downtown San Angelo Skyline for the last 17 consecutive years according to city code all signs must be safe presentable and structurally sound here in this room weeks ago councilman Tom Thompson shamelessly tried to con every individual within the sound of his voice by claiming that a fire marshal drone flyby is a legitimate fire and structural safety inspection when half of Lee pflueger's giant sign letters were removed 17 years ago fluger reportedly stated he intended to renovate the signs interior electrical lighting the wiring of which was likely many decades older at that point Thompson never mentioned a Hands-on Physical fire inspection of the sign a standalone fire safety inspection using a drone is obviously illegitimate during that same gaslighting speech by Thompson

[0:34:58] regarding a structural Integrity inspection Thompson proudly stated that a structural engineer had found no problematic structural issues regarding the sign ironically City officials informed me months before that they were still waiting for Mr Pfluger to provide them with a structural engineers report they indicated Pfluger retained obtained the report at an unspecified earlier date from an engineering firm which he had personally selected and personally financially compensated such an arrangement is also obviously illegitimate Tom Thompson's speech off also offered the city's ridiculous Supreme Court decisions excuse intended to effectively terminate my sign code violation allegations both Supreme Court decisions apply to content related First Amendment issues neither of which are relevant to the hotel Cactus rooftop sign situation this Supreme Court decisions fraud was a desperate distraction technique related to the irrefutable fact that the rooftop sign is currently not in a presentable condition and has not been maintained as such for almost two decades I'm formally requesting that a motion be made today for this sign code controversy to be placed on an upcoming city council meeting agenda as soon as possible if no one has the Integrity to offer that motion I'm formally requesting an immediate explanation comprehensive details regarding this entire matter may be viewed on Facebook please on my Facebook group site for their public comment once twice public comment is now closed we will move into the consent agenda

[0:37:08] I will ask each council member if there's an item they'd like to have pulled from the consent agenda starting with Larry Karen I'm going to pull item D Harry Tom nothing nipple all right may I have a motion to approve items a b and c please some move by Tommy second by Larry any public comment on items a b or c none will take a vote all those in favor of approving items a b and c please say aye aye hearing No No's consent agenda is approved we'll move on to item D consider ratifying Cosa DC's approval of proposed revisions to the Cosa DC bylaws Michael Dane euron good morning Marion Council Michael Dame interim or acting economic development director you have questions on this item yes I know it says on here I'm confused by Article 2 Section 2 B board May contract with other qualified entities for secretary and Treasurer with Council approval tell me what that is does that mean we're going to hire people to do a secretary and treasurer's position no ma'am under the current bylaws those are required to be City staff positions but one of the possibilities that the board had contemplated was hiring outside Services uh or the ability to appoint others to perform those functions and that's would be prohibited under the current bylaws so they wanted the that Latitude to be able to do that with council's approval if that situation arose

[0:39:12] I don't think they have any plans at this time they were just contemplating if if they began using outside services and needed to use for example if they hired a CPA firm to begin doing their accounting and financial reporting they might consider using someone other than the city's Finance director for their Treasurer is that because there's a belief that it would be a less expensive venture to do that I don't know specifically what would motivate that because most boards for secretary and Treasurer are selected within a board for Cosa DC the treasurer is specified as a city's Finance director and we believe in outside firm would have a better grisp and handle on the finances I do not under the current Arrangement where the council holds the uh Cosa DC board close I think it serves the council's interests and both boards interests in general to have the finance director um in touch with in serving both entities occasionally there are times when for example the cocity Seaboard buys Land from the city or conducts a a transaction with the city where we have to be careful about which side is is the finance Finance director is going to need to step in on one side or the other and be absent from the opposite side and we just have to be careful when that happens but we do need to make sure those cases do we not have separate legal staff from the attorney's staff to represent each side yes ma'am in fact on a routine basis we have separate legal staff to assist kosa DC versus the city so it's not even special cases where we

[0:41:16] have special distinct legal staff we're just careful with that I think this was just uh an attempt by the board to be prepared for latitude in the event they needed it because there's no trust in the city's financial department relative to Cosa DC is that what it would be about nothing like that was expressed um but um is there a belief that's cheaper instead of having internal staff do it that they could hire outside staff to do it well I do know that they have the talk recently has been about the cost of services and so I do know that that you know what can they do to get better value for the dollar has been part of the thought process but if they hire outside staff do you still not have a part of our finance department charged to because of DC because you're still going to be using City staff to work with that person from outside it depends on exactly what they would hire it would be duplicated it it could be obviously if they proposed if that board proposed to do something different we would have to optimize that situation and and draw clear boundaries uh in order to both determine appropriate responsibility and to maximize the financial impact and just for clarity for everyone who determines when we look at the dollar amount charged to Cosa DC for the various areas made in real estate lawyer Finance Etc who determines what percent or what dollar amount is charged to Cosa DC and who directed The City to do that we have a study conducted by a consultant who we we informally call it

[0:43:21] the indirect cost allocation study and they come in and they determine the attempt to determine what percentage of time or effort a given administrative Department spends supporting other funds or departments for example Human Resources deals with personnel placement and uh displacement of personnel managing those positions and so they look at how much time Human Resources spends for the water fund for the sewer fund for the general fund and for Cosa DC and they attempt to determine what is an appropriate way to allocate the burden for that to those different funds in a rational way and so that outside firm does that now we have done that for years because there are federal grants which allow us to allocate those administrative costs to those grants and recover what it takes to administer those grants so we did this we could no longer do that well we could still do that for example if if Cosa DC hired somebody to be their Treasurer and do their financial work but they retained legal we could still recover legal's uh efforts the financial uh piece of legal's efforts to support Cosa DC we could still do that this would just be carving out for secretary and or Treasurer those things I can't support that so I'm just going to be clear on that I would not support to change the bylaws to do that does not seem reasonable unless there's someone who can prove up that there is an issue with the city's ability to for accountability relative to Cow City C and not

[0:45:23] um from from what I understand it's not like we're trying to reduce the general fund obligations and assign those dollars to Cosa DC so I don't really support that and I really don't understand the secretary position I think it's the same thing it's just if the secretary records the minutes right yes ma'am so who are you going to hire from outside of Costa DC to record the minutes I think again I can't support it that does not make sense to me and I think it is an overreach trying to change the bylaws unless there's something that is very specific that would lead us to believe that currently the work being done by City staff as secretary and or as Treasurer is problematic okay then I want to ask about on section one appointment of an executive director it says executive director um position the own the duly appointed director of economic development for the city of San Angelo's Shall Serve as the executive director of the corporation the city manager shall appoint the director of economic development in consultation with the corporations board of directors B which is where I believe their changes are being asked is that correct because it was a highlighted point let up okay it would be page 10 of the bylaws I'm not sure what page in the might be page 28 of them there's also a change to a where it adds in consultation with

[0:47:25] that appears to be a change as well I'm with you okay so going to this to point a then the city manager shall appoint the director of economic development in consultation with the corporations board of directors what does that mean it is not defined and I can't support it the selection process is outlined in Article 5 Section 1 a the board shall participate in the selection process when a vacancy arises in the executive director position the board president or their designee Shall Serve on the selection panel alongside the city manager and his or her designees the board president may also point up to two additional board members to serve on the selection panel in no event shall Quorum of the board participate on a selection panel for the executive director position and violation of the Texas open meetings act you want to talk through that uh board just desires to participate their in that hiring process they desire to be their position their positions on various candidates to be heard and they would like to um have a voice in that decision Our advice from our attorney Brandon is the serves coast of DC said that the bylaws is a poor place to try to control the behavior of the city manager and that the optimum place to do that would be in the city services agreement to specify how that interaction should take place in other words the the court the Cosa DC bylaws would not um

[0:49:27] would not control the actions of the city manager the concern though is that a mitigating Factory in that is if Council voted to approve these there might be an expectation that's a city manager comply with these and so there is a little ambiguity there may I ask Teresa is there any other board where in their bylaws we allow them to be participants in the hiring of their executive directors only one that I can think of off the top of my head that's similar is maybe the mpo and I know when I first got here we did some work on how that executive director is is chosen but generally my advice is very consistent these are city employees and therefore the sole control and hiring and firing of those needs to be retained within the city although you know the in consultation with if we ask the opinion Avenue Daniel does a lot of committees and includes a lot of people on those committees who have a stake in the decision but I'm not aware of one that would not only allow participation but also allow them to have more than one person participate even without the city managers I have a real problem trying to control the city manager through a bylaws process well and I don't I wasn't there when Brandon advised his client but I would have the same concern that this is not the appropriate place to direct the action of the city manager because this does not apply to the city it applies to the co-cities board I think the board was receptive to Brandon's advice and moved away from trying to uh formally be part of that process and more Empower their president to allow the appointment if necessary or if the opportunity presented itself to have participants so I don't think the board uh was trying to control the process here I think if they try to do that sounds like it it looks like it and if you read it it seems like it would connect the dots in that manner and I can't support that I can understand that

[0:51:30] yes ma'am Harry I also have some concern there and and you you voiced it mayor and I appreciate that thing the point being here is I can't support this document the way it's written I think what we need to do is bring this document back with with some changes so that we can really look at it the mayor has brought up three points and she's only halfway through this document so I'm sure that there's other I'm really surprised and I'll say this surprised that we're bringing this document forward with so much so many questions and I know Brandon took a look at it I'm really surprised that Teresa let it get to this particular Point personally I don't think this particular document serves well for the citizens of San Angelo and certainly not people up here in this dies so I I certainly can't can't support the document the way it's written either clear I have no ability to stop or brought to our agenda to be ratified or to be rejected and so we did have numerous consultations and conversations about it but when they approved something that's what's brought forward and be fair uh the board gave it thought voted I think unanimously on this effort and so I have a duty to bring it to you as they voted for it so Miriam May I as far as working with boards I really encourage that I don't have an issue being able to work with the board having it written down as far as the the way it will be followed I do have an issue with that I know the selection process right now that we're going through we do have the board president of the Cosa DC that is involved in that process of course the city council is involved in the

[0:53:32] process through our our mayor as well I do hire by committee I have never hired anyone by my on my own I want the expert opinion of those who are heavily involved with these individuals to be involved as well so in this case mayor I do agree in in Harry I do agree with you as well I had a lot of concern a lot of notes that I actually wrote down on that as well I think that that's hamstring in the city manager to make a decision based on objectively who that the best person for that position would be I don't get involved in the politics of it I just want to make sure that we get the the person who really fits the bill and it's going to do a good job for us and we go through the process through committee but again I do have issues and concerns the way it's written as well and if you put it in perspective the involvement from let's just say the president of the Cosa DC board could very well term out the very next year I mean there there's just too many I can't support this so I think I've raised two very important points about why this bylaws change is not acceptable it and I can spend a lot more time on it if you'd like me to I think I'm good we have other comments from City Council Members before I move on my problem was maybe I'm repeating what Mr Valenzuela said but this paragraph doesn't say who the ultimate Authority is it looks like it's some kind of a voting pattern with the selection panel ultimate Authority for hiring currently and even if this passes is the city manager I don't think we want to get into a battle in a conflict over who was hired why they were hired or differences of opinion you would hope that the credentials of anyone that we looked at and chose to move to a final position of of hiring would be someone that um

[0:55:37] we could all support and feel strongly that we've gone through the right actions to make the right person come forward this this I can't support and I say it again I understand two two quick points it doesn't sound like it'll make any difference the board made clear they did not want to uh affect this hiring cycle or this hiring process they wanted it to move forward as it exists now and then the second I believe I have a board member president who would like to make comment I've got I've got more things I want to say first okay okay and the other one is except for contracts or transactions executed by the executive executive director as permitted herein no contract or other transaction between this Corporation and any other Corporation person or entity shall be authorized unless approved at a public meeting by a quorum of the board on duly adopted motion of members not having a conflict of interest can you define What conflict of interest is in relative to the coast of DC board no ma'am I'd have to have an attorney up here to go through that for us we do that please they have the same statutory conflict of interest Provisions that you do as the city council where if a percentage of their income or their family's income or a corporation they're involved in receives funding from cocdc or from The Entity that um they're trying to contract with then they are not allowed to participate in those discussions or decisions except in very limited in instances so if a majority of people are conflicted then everybody announces their conflict and then they can all participate but most of the time that's not the case I'm trying to find it on here and I'm sure I've printed it somewhere but there's the issue on here that allows the executive director to approve 25 000 commitments of money without approval of City Council ma'am but does it limit how many twenty five thousand dollars

[0:57:41] a year or any given time period may be approved so you could end up with a series of fifteen twenty five thousand dollars approval is that correct yes ma'am the limitation for that autonomy is the budget um and uh there's a limitation for uh Economic Development projects the attempt there was to empower the director to have the same purchasing Authority that other that City Department directors have so that routine expenditures could be accomplished without having to go to the board and then for ratification to counsel we think that makes all kinds of sense subject to the controls in State Statute and of course subject to budgetary controls and so we are advocates for that and I am strongly an advocate for that I think it makes the process smoother perhaps so people aren't waiting to be paid um so I think that makes sense um but I think we need to always be very cautious of if you add all those up what does that mean in any current budget year you're right they're actually issues there very few that rise to that kind of level that aren't project oriented they usually it's you know a HVAC unit or something like that that that causes us to have to spend that kind of money sometimes participation in like towards the plains but that exceeds that and that usually comes through the whole process we would consider that a project expenditure or not not a project but something that requires that kind of scrutiny so on one second okay so they're you're a late deleting I

[0:59:50] think on item I review of proposed development projects at one point I think we're asking to delete this with regard to Economic Development projects the corporation May request review and recommendation from Cornerstone investors at the San Angelo Chamber of Commerce as provided under contract outside entities when deemed appropriate for the board of directors I don't get any of that what does that mean can you tell me what page you're on there it says page four which I think it is Page four of the bylaws the way this is in its item I I'm not sure why you would ever have the Cornerstone investors involved in the in the San Angelo Chamber of Commerce involved in any of this why and is that because is that why you're eliminating it because it's crossed out on my sheet so I'm wondering why well I think I think that this was an edit and Brandon you might this your document so you might have to come up and explain it but this was an edited document that had further edits so I don't think Cornerstone is in the original but yep so Cornerstone was in the original and I'm not sure why that that's in the current bylaws I think what the board wanted to do was not be limited by that so that if they had other entities that could review a project um they would have the discretion to do that but not necessarily like on a compensation type basis they could call in um and interested entity and just get their review and recommendation on a project yeah I don't support that at all so that's eliminated right that's that we're striking out of the bylaws you want to remove Cornerstone and any other outside entity as well yes well the thing on this one this is the confusion part it says and recommendations from and I'm going to read what it says cross out Cornerstone investors or the San Angelo Chamber of Commerce is provided under

[1:01:53] contract what is not crossed out but is underlined says outside entities when deemed appropriate by the board of directors yeah so what's crossed out is how it currently reads and the underline is the replacement for that crossed out language so the bylaws would read and recommendations from outside entities when deemed appropriate by the board of directors yes ma'am but the question mark is we have a ballot that was very specific about what the approved projects are so why are we in question of this ballot approved projects I I want I think that what you're asking to strike out is appropriate needs to be gone but I also say outside entities when deemed appropriate by the board of directors when it's very clear what the ballot approved projects are and yes I believe it starts out in addition to the ballot approved project so I think this is an attempt to allow the board to receive counsel from other entities who have expertise in a given industry if the board is considering a project that involves that industry for example if the if we had a local Restaurant Association and we were thinking about incentivizing a restaurant equipment manufacturer the Restaurant Association might have advice for the board that was valuable is this a reputable manufacturer let's start with the following very specific things and it is ballot approved projects citizens voted yes on what those ballot approved projects are it is not up for debate what those ballot approved

[1:03:58] projects are is that correct Theresa yeah that is correct but I think what Michael's saying is there are additional projects Beyond those that we do that that's where they're going to seek that input it's not an attempt to affect the ballot projects it's the non-ballot projects that I believe this language applies to be the economic development and it should say I would think in addition to non-ballot approved projects not ballot approved projects should say non-ballot approved projects because the citizens were very specific about what projects they would approve we can work on that language if it's confusing to make sure that it's clear that the ballot approved projects aren't the ones that are under consideration in this we will not create distrust from the public and Cosa DC funding of projects when they were very specific when they voted on Cosa DC's extension of The Haves and sales tax what projects they would support and I want to make sure we all continue to support the public the citizens support of those ballot approved projects so it needs to say non-balance work on that language okay item C uh other than required budget approval contracts entered in to pursuant to Article 1 Section 8 2 III and article V section 2 do not require city council approval because earlier in that same paragraph it says contracts for service and this is what it says it says the corporation May with approval of City Council

[1:06:05] and then at the end where it says red it looks like to me you're adding do not require city council approval when the very first line says the corporation May with approval of the city council contract with any qualified and appropriate person Association Corporation on and on and on that's right and I believe that is referred to the addition of the Authority for the director that is contained farther back in I think section five or Article Five and it I think this is an attempt to not to make clear that the director's Authority does not override or supersede the requirements for the corporation to go to council is that it's bloody there who would ever know that it's not clear enough so normally it would require Council approval there's a couple of exceptions the executive director as Michael mentioned and then if it's above 25 000 but below 50 000 they wanted that to be able to go to just the board with city manager approval and not have to go to council to expedite those types of purchases so that language at the bottom is just trying to make clear that there are those two exceptions it's not clear because it doesn't say anything about those exceptions so if you want a contract that is clear those exceptions have to be pointed out in this piece Mary it references the the sections we write it out could we add it very specific language to that language um investment policy it says um the accounts reconciliation investment of such funds an account shall be performed by the Department of Finance of the city unless another qualified entity or individual has been employed by the board of directors to perform such Services under contract approved by city council well I'm challenging using an outside Service as treasurer versus our own finance department so

[1:08:09] this investment policy explained it might not be understanding it enough this is simply to align I believe the provisions in this section with the latitude that they were seeking for hiring and out someone outside to be the treasurer I don't support that so I can't support this I understand um then finally in on section two which would which would be under Section Eight to and that's where see this follows what we just I just talked about was not clear because this piece on these bylaws follows not before it but follows those exceptions for approval because this says and with the city of San Angelo's purchasing policy and procedures manual as amended Additionally the following limitations shall apply I the executive director may make expenditures up to 25 000 is provided in article V section 2 below to expenditure see we're going to do that we need to have that above the other and I don't believe we need to do that so I I think there needs to be some serious review of this I cannot support approving these bylaw changes today I think you need to go back to the board and ask for some re-reviews and thinking through some more I understand what we will do is um if this if this vote fails we will review this video and compile a list of the observations and make that available to board members did I make a motion to table this revision to the bylaws for a future date

[1:10:17] by Harry wait a minute I think it's more appropriate just to deny them because they're going to have to go back to cocdc for approval and if we bring it back as table it'll be the same item we're bringing back so so tell me what I need to say I think you need to make a motion to deny ratification of these bylaws make a motion to deny ratification of these bylaw changes do I have a second second by Harry is there public comment foreign none will take a vote all in favor of denying the approval these bylaw changes police say aye motion is approved or denied approved to deny I think is that the good way to say it okay all right we will now move on to our regular agenda regular agenda comments regarding items on the regular agenda may be made by the public when each item is discussed as outlined above applicants proponents and appellants are exempt from the time limit above and instead must limit their remarks to less than five minutes item a update and Direction on the Buffalo Soldiers Memorial project led by the local unit of the NAACP at El Paseo De Santa de Santa Angela Park including clarification of the city property that is encompassed by the project Carl euron yes we'd like to give an update on the Buffalo Soldier Memorial project and offer a clarification as to the the property that's included and encompassed in this project um just a quick background the local unit of the NAACP is leading the efforts uh resolution was passed adopted on April 5 2022 supporting the fundraising for the project supporting the project and the

[1:12:20] use of the space afterwards a few months later city council authorized the negotiation of an agreement with the San Angelo area foundation for implementation of the project let me skip down to the bottom funding is now in place and construction documents are developed we're interested in moving forward with the project now these two built bullets I skipped were bullets on a final slide of the original presentation to city council about this project and in the excitement to get the project moving the project was approved the resolution was adopted before this slide was presented that showed those two bullets so as a clarification and as part of this item an exhibit was included in the background information that shows the area I'll show here in a second the primary area of the project is at the El Paseo De Santa to be used for Memorial interpretive space in the secondary adjacent area to be landscaped this image was part of the exhibit that was attached to this item so it shows the the two parcels one at the Paseo and then one adjacent to it along Oak Street now I hesitated to show this slide because council did not see this slide it was created that's a key point we never saw this yes this rendering was created after uh the resolution was adopted and also it doesn't quite show what we're intending to do at this point we're intended to to do at this point he's just Landscaping it doesn't include a lot of this rock work that you see here council did see these slides that show The Monuments and now we have construction documents and I'll uh I'd like to just quickly show you the site plan that shows the

[1:14:22] two Parcels we have the Paseo section here and the other secondary section here along Oak Street that shows the Landscaping closer view shows the improvements accessibility improvements shows the Paseo the the construction plans keep the essence of the Paseo you see the Meandering Creek Way there that was originally part of that and basically overlays the improvements and enhancements onto that The Monuments the new seating enhanced landscaping and connection to the secondary location and put together here's the match line right here is also here so this shows the Landscaping along Oak Street and then how it connects to the Paseo section this here is an Alleyway that has not been abandoned and so we're just proposing to put decomposed Granite on it we we could make it more simply and so where's that Alleyway just exactly where is it let me back in because I can't tell from that okay describe where it is here but right here here's the cabinet shop here's the Paseo here's Oak Street but as you see here we've simplified it we've made it just a simple connection here do you see what a problem it is that today we're presenting this which is so different than what we approved originally to clarify Council I think the original proposal was that that you saw along the sale itself the other was was noted what was not included was the actual connection design so you're showing that today so this is meant to be a

[1:16:24] clarification for that so that Council knows and there's not any confusion for future councils to show that final piece of landscaping to help you all out so yes we agree we need to bring it back as a clarification and that's why it's coming today Jerry you wanted to ask a question or make a comment Carl if you could go back to the slide and chose the two pieces of property Paseo here and the other one right there this is exactly the slide that you started with on April 5th about 41 minutes into that particular meeting pointed these two these two pieces of property out at the beginning of the uh of this I presumed that we were talking about both properties throughout the whole process the whole 18 minutes that we discussed it and that's what I voted on I voted on both properties as one project now I'm sorry that wasn't clarified more but from my perspective that's what I thought we were voting on him go ahead Carl that's mostly the presentation I do have an update from the area foundation that I could present right quick um so funding has been secured to move forward construction documents and costs have been determined mccraig construction has been chosen to begin construction with construction documents being executed last week the permitting process is beginning funding secures allowed for the main section of the moral to be constructed with all the improvements and the secondary One to begin Landscaping initially with some larger trees planted and then later with some smaller trees and ornamental Landscaping as well as the the connection

[1:18:28] Carl just to clarify does that mean that the the area that we're talking about today is included in that construction that is the Landscaping you're talking about yes so it's included in the funding yes okay questions for Carl as I'm just concerned that we didn't have a more thorough presentation and conversation when it was originally presented because we as a council have had many conversations over that piece of property that fronts the cabinet shop and I think many of us here know that so I think there would have been a whole different conversation about that property out of we had a thorough discussion that day about that being inclusive of it and I claim ignorance to the fact that maybe that diagram was there and I trust that Harry's correct but I was not aware of it so that's my own problem and would have had a much further conversation about it because again city council has on many occasions had a discussion about that property faces Oaks and the future of that property so that's my own issue with it Harry I mean Tommy I think in our excitement over the project we probably move past moved past this inadvertently so it's still an issue because we all know what that is yeah that being said any other comments from Council then what um do we need to do do we need to go ahead and take a vote um to make sure that there's no further issue with that being included can we and if it is an issue what what do we do it's a direction item so I think just a consensus I don't think there has to be

[1:20:31] a formal vote but I believe the information was also included in the background package we looked at this pretty extensively to see why what had happened um so it was in the background information on the agenda as well as I don't remember if it was presented or not but I believe Harry is I know all of the the wonderfully presented visuals with it never included that side element I do know that so with that being said um is there any Karen please curious what that unabandoned piece is currently being used for totally abandoned and visually it's pretty ugly because we have some buttresses supporting those buttresses have to stay because it I mean you can't remove those buttresses so does this design include those buttresses because I don't see that I need to see that there is a fencing in the Landscaping the fencing blocks the view of that they're pretty tall those could be a tall fence so Carl the Gap there the white place is where those buttresses lie yes so the Landscaping starts just to the east of those Butters those buttresses remain because that is required draw a line stability of that building online where they are you're here they're in that white space there's a fence there's a fence that goes along that side of the Landscaping that blocks the view of those buttresses is that what you're saying yes The Butchers are here the offense and then the trees planted so visually you'll be able to see the top of the building you know what the fence is proposed we need to see what that fence looks like where's the diagram on that it's it's I think it's part of the the background information but not on the slide is it what is it and how tall is it Matt Lewis is here with the area

[1:22:34] foundation mayor council Matt Lewis with the San Angelo area foundation uh we stipulated raising that fence making it newer and raising it up taller so how tall would it be uh I believe it was going to go up to seven feet right now it's a five and a half so it would raise it taller uh you know before we get that up we can certainly come back and revisit it if it because the whole goal is making sure it's visually attractive and if we're six inches shorter well we may make it six inches taller if we can save six inches we certainly want to dress it up as best we can but the idea was is that if at a future time something was done with that property that fence could come down and then I think that's key because I don't want to limit our potential to do because we own the property behind the cabinet shop and we own what's in front of it and I don't think we want to be limited to the outcome and final use of those properties by this but the fence is flexible yes ma'am it's just it's like a privacy residential taller fence that would be very nice but if at a future you know years from now something's done different on the cabinet shop property and it was incorporating with that Landscaping that fence would come down so we'll make sure we make a note on that that fence is up for consideration should it need to be if future use of those properties the city owns needs to happen okay any other questions for Carl or comments I guess we just need to by consensus like Teresa said just move forward with the with taking note of the comments made here that that I guess everybody not in your head consensus is there

[1:24:35] and Tom I can't my senior head nodding yes okay yes ma'am we're good okay thank you all right [Music] all right thanks Carl and I think you're uh the next anyway so Item B consider resolution supporting the private fundraising efforts to construct splash pads at city parks we received some months ago a proposal from all Texas irrigation and supply as part of this proposal they committed to funding the splash pad facilities up to 200 000 as part of that proposal they wanted to secure the naming rights for the splash pads for the life of the facilities uh they are proposing two splash pads to be built one at Kirby community park and one at Unidad College Hills Park and once these are constructed the city would take on full maintenance and operation of facilities as well as inspection a quick orientation of the locations here at Kirby Park North Bryant is up here this is Edmond Boulevard North Concho River the large Pavilion at Kirby Park the circle shows the proposed location the little rectangular boxes you see there are currently used as washer pitching horseshoe pitching area that got used a lot that's moderately used it's not heavily used it's mostly used during moderately I mean 10 people a week I would say 100 people a week a few times a month the most um so I I think a splash pad would definitely be a higher use of this property here it's a great location right next to the river near where we intend to cross over connects to the other piece of property a large Pavilion there's restrooms there's lots of

[1:26:37] parking there's a playground it's an awesome location it is a community park we have some renderings of what that's that has been conceptualized to look like how much irrigation did it take to make that Park look that green I must clarify that this is not it doesn't superimpose the exact location The Pavilion would be right here this shows a pretty uh standard uh splash pad with the different spray elements let me take just a few looks around it one of the the top items that kids really love is this bucket here that fills up with water and then kids anticipate it dumping over so they they stand underneath it is that like somebody at the county fair that throws that sits up on the water bucket and you throw basketballs to try to dunk them is that the same similar they'll get splashed with water if they stand underneath it for sure sort of a ground View moving around it and this image shows it's more of a bird's eye view the Pavilion would be back over here this little cutout is because we want to take advantage of a light that's already existing at this location that provides light for this this general area [Music] second location at College Hills [Music] here's College Hills Boulevard this is Vista Delaware we did consider this location because it kind of brings it all together Within the playground area but we decided on this location because

[1:28:42] electricity is basically this spot here which makes it more it's cheaper to actually construct because the run for that is very short uh again a great location of we have plenty of parking we have restrooms we have a great park with a new playground and a pavilion now this one is the smaller uh it's more of like a spray pad and it does have lights but um we've talked about removing the lights and perhaps adding some features that this this spray PAD as well to provide some variety but it's more of a spray pad where you just have the water coming up from the ground [Music] ground View and what neighborhood is that yeah it looks like San Francisco almost uh this one has lights but again the president we're not talking about doing the lights because we're not intending to operate these at night how do you keep someone from not using them at night we could but we're going to have to if we run it at night we're gonna have to have somebody there to actually inspect and make sure everything's safe they won't I mean they could get on it but as far as the features running they're on timers so they will not run at night okay I mean they could walk on it or whatever but yeah there's an actuator that you have to press to get its start looking at the costs again the Kirby one is is the larger more expensive one for its construction at the site just the site itself we're looking at 335 000 you hear that is 255 000 256 000. and these costs are for both sides with all the the plans uh the site plans the mechanical engineering Plumbing all the permits the housing for the equipment the filters

[1:30:44] and the pumps uh which are basically about 10 feet by 20 feet in size the utility runs for electrical and water the Shaded sitting areas we got a quote on those about 12 000 each for uh basically a canopy covered shaded sitting area that's connected to the splash pad a couple for each site connecting walkways this all the signage we will have to make some adjustments to the irrigation systems at both locations so there's a cost there and we've factored in some con contingency with an overall budget estimate of eight hundred fifty thousand dollars now I need to point out that these systems are recirculating so that the water doesn't go back into the sewer system it goes back into a holding tank and then gets filtered a sand filter to then a UV filter before it goes back out to the splash pad now uh Brent Casey is here Recreation manager who'll speak about the operation and maintenance and inspections of the splash pads we think that's very important and it also does have a cost so we'll present that as well we also have folks here from Altex irrigation who may want to speak to the project and and again we've mauled this item as a resolution similar like we've done with the restroom projects where if this gets adopted the folks can go out and raise the funds for it but they can't they can't begin the projects unless the funds are raised now the resolution does State since there's two splash pads that if funds are raised to proceed with a smaller one they can do so and continue to raise funds for the the second one but can't initiate the second one until all the funds are raised for it as well good morning mayor Daniel Council um yes so obviously there's a lot that has to be done once the splash pads are

[1:32:47] completed to maintain them so it would include you know checking the chlorine levels there's muriatic acid cyanic acid everything like that minimum total bromine if we decided to go with bromine but that would probably not even be used because it would be the chlorine instead of the bromine maintain the pH between 7.2 and 7.8 so this is something that all these things have to be and many others have to be checked every two to four hours while the pools or one of those splash pads would be open to the public the pool current municipal pool we check every two hours while we're open to the public and we document that which this would have to be documented as well also before opening we would have to inspect and remove any biofilm that build up on any of the services such as the tank the spring nozzles and the drains Test free availability chlorine every two to four hours which I mentioned ensure drains prevent standing water from collecting and inspect the tank regulating clean as needed document all the things that we do all the chemicals that we put in and where the readings are so every couple of hours so with that I would request an additional full-time employee to assist us with the operation of the splash pads and also give them duties to assist with what we myself and my staff currently do with the pool so the full-time based seller would be forty thousand five hundred eighty three dollars uh their benefits would be another eighteen three so a total Personnel cost of fifty eight thousand nine hundred and seventy six dollars and then the water is estimated to cost for the two stop here a minute because here's the one issue I would ask on this is we already employ someone to do what you just said has to be done every two hours at the pool the city pool when it's in operation correct I would like to clarify on that one and Brent you can correct me this is one I talked about at the last council meeting I think this was sort of brought up which we agree is a concern but right now what's happening is for the most part Brent and John Henry who have other jobs and they are not hired to be experts in monitoring those systems or having to try to maintain and

[1:34:51] keep those up and running at our existing pool so this type of person and he can elaborate on who's actually doing the inspections and so forth is an area I believe we need to address long term with the city and other in other areas as well answer your question yes ma'am we do currently have a pool manager while the pool is open and an assistant manager and they're the ones responsible for for checking the chlorine and all the other chemical levels in the water if it needs adjusted then we are contacted one of my staff members normally the supervisor that's over the aquatics but if there's other issues and like John Henry's basically are a real expert and then I'm learning from him and learning as we go but um we go down and we adjust things in the mechanical room which we do train the pool manager to do some of the things but all of the things are not done by them depending on what it is so if something stops working we need to go down and get it fixed and get it put brought back up online however the situation may go but the pool manager and the assistant pool manager normally they're they're not both there at the same time so they also deal with the customers deal with everything by as in running the pool my full-time staff go over and we do check on the pool managers and other things but if we do the splash pads they would be open longer than the end of May through the first weekend in September so we would get more use out of them so the pool manager wouldn't work as far as sending them over to the two locations to check I think you just mentioned something that I'd like some clarification on and that is okay so the swimming pool is only open from whatever date to whatever date you just said right but that's also because kids go back to school but a splash pad would seem to have a longer season to it than a swimming pool would so because you know it's 80 degrees sometimes in September a lot it's 100 degrees a lot in September and October um I was in December it's 80 some degrees so the question mark is what is the anticipated time frame these splash pads

[1:36:54] would be open probably around the beginning of March through the end of September early October depending on the weather we could adjust it as we go but something like that so about a month prior and about a month longer somewhere in there what do the people we're going to employ to do this do when the pull and the splash pads aren't open why'd you ask that question currently my staff have to go to the pool twice a day right now even in January even though the pool's been closed since the first weekend in September we have to go down twice a day and bump it and make sure that everything's not leaking running correctly and everything like that I could put that on manual because but because of the money that we just spent on that I'm the only one in City staff that knows those coats to do so and I don't want it done that way yet because I want to make sure that everything continues to work properly and as it is because of the money that we just put into that so it's not something that you just turn off September or October and leave it it's something that you still have to go and maintain and watch and check and make sure there's no leaks every moving part breaks at some point in time we all know that so you still to lubricate things the splash pads wouldn't be near as bad as the pool during the winter months because we would drain it and all the water would come out so we wouldn't have to worry about freezing and everything like that the pool which would be added into this position if approved there's year round maintenance that has to be done with that and then the splash pads as well but we would definitely go and check those okay so what we know right now is we wouldn't approve these full-time people yet because we haven't raised all the money for these splash pads so we wouldn't be hiring people right now and so I wouldn't agree to approve the fight the hiring of these people unless we said specifically that they would be hired as needed based off of the splash pads being completed is that correct we're not asking to do it unless the splash pads get built yes ma'am be clear so the water and electricity chemicals

[1:38:57] minor tools and equipment Professional Services in case with something beyond what our knowledge of my staff does have or myself we have to bring someone in and Outsource maintenance which is also the same thing but we do have a couple different accounts depending on what part of the equipment it is that needs attention so I wanted to put a couple different ones in there so estimated operation costs come out to about 28 600 and that's including the major increase in the chemicals over the past year and a half and then someone told you inflation is not as bad as it used to be and is going down on a daily basis okay thank you all right um so total estimated for the personnel and the running of the operation would be 87 576 dollars and so talk to us about okay this is what we think once they're open it's going to be our annual maintenance costs what happens five years down the road two years down the road five years down the roads ten years down the road everything should be roughly the same depending on the chemicals and where they go price wise we're anticipating this to last at least 20 years before it's going to need any major thing of course we're going to have to go and lubricate things and everything like that and do what we need to do and make sure everything's clean especially in the holding tanks that's the area that's not everyone sees all the time but yeah it should stay roughly the same I'm sorry yeah still has to be done yes ma'am there is the possibility with this like anything else where you have a pump failure or something like that so we do have those those costs that come along sometime unexpectedly um do I have questions or comments from rest of council yes go ahead Karen you first and then Larry you follow please will there be a fee assessed to access the splash pad it's open to the public is this a typical Arrangement where the name is given to it in perpetuity this this wouldn't be in perpetuity

[1:41:04] it's proposed to be for the life of the splash pads well because you're going to have multiple people because there's a fundraising effort right so you're going to have many people we help many people contributing to the cost of these the 800 000 right dollars so it's not I'm sure a text um a text all tax sorry I'm in the restaurant business uh would be um certainly needs to be recognized for their efforts but is there signage that is expected to be displayed at these uh Splash packs because I didn't see anything in the diagrams we did have slides I missed it rules and sight science where are they at when they weren't in the sketches were they it doesn't show where the signs are no okay you explain Carl what those are proposed to say if there's an agreement that Altex is proposing with this donation wanting naming rights are they wanting I think they're here in the audience we want to make sure we're all very clear on that the life of the splash pads um everyone's clear we want to make sure there's no ambiguity to any of this today so the answer Larry's question as they're coming up is I believe that in this case they would be requesting naming rights associated with their donation the intent is for the life of the thing which they're anticipating is about 20 years at least 20 years so at the entrance of the facility there would be a sign basically saying Altex spots the splash pad sponsored by Altex Jeff Perron I'm the owner of Altex irrigation and supply um yeah we would expect naming rights on this we're we're going to be putting forth the effort to raise the money um and we're putting up a chunk of it up front to start the funding um I think also after seeing y'all look at some of the other part features

[1:43:07] of the one you looked at prior to ours these are pre-renderings we have to start somewhere get something rolling get the ball moving um our biggest deal is to produce the 501c so we can start the non-profit we'd need approval with that with you know from y'all once that's accomplished I I would say that we would do a firmer rendering with the correct backgrounds maybe if if if our fundings are being exceeded a lot quicker than expected maybe we're looking forward you know to maybe go above and beyond what we've budgeted out these renderings could be modified tremendously it'd be great to see more crowdfunding and more money you know opposed but is right now um this is where we were starting we did incorporate a smaller location and a larger location just to kind of give ourselves an idea of a budget from a larger splash pad to a smaller splash pad with features without features now we can go in and plug and play from one quote to another to get an idea of you know what what a feature cost maybe even at that point we could sell those features or those structures you know to ask for crowdfunding you know if we put a value on that particular Splash you know the bucket dump or whatever to to ask for help from individuals um I would like to see a lot more money involved in possibly a larger scaled Splash Pad when it's all said and done at both locations or maybe the opportunity for a third down the road but what is your expected time frame to start on if there's one that you've raised enough money for what would be the time frame you would expect is this something we will see in 2023 or not until 2024 I'd love to see it 2023 but I would not to be off with everything going on and the things that are happening and hard to get product and structures Manpower I'd be conservative and say 24 but um you get the money moving then hit the you know hit the ground running I'd love to have it sooner than

[1:45:08] later because let's take advantage of it if we can make it happen you're working with the area of foundation to create the fund correct yeah once that's approved by city council then we should be able to open up a all-tech splash pad fund and anybody and everybody could donate are there any questions for Jeff Larry I have one but it may be for for Carl I'm curious about whether there's any on-site management I know it's not a swimming pool but accidents do happen well we don't have on-site management of our Parks right so we don't have someone at every Park every day managing our Parks so I can't imagine that we would but that's just my perspective doesn't mean I'm correct no sir there's no requirement to have someone on site it's zero depth so you don't have to have lifeguards so no other questions or comments for Jeff while he's here up front do we need to know anything else or do you have questions for Council please have any questions for Council like I said I'm just able to make this happen and then if we can get the approval then then it lies on my hands but I just wanted to make clear that um like I said renderings starting points this is where we are um we will be dedicated enough to make sure that when it's game time all renderings will be correct and accurate so well thank you for your passion and your efforts to get this started I know it's a big investment on url's part but I also know that this has been something that the city couldn't afford to do and yet the citizens would like to have as part of our Park system so I believe so and the city is going to have to I mean not the city we appreciate your cooperation as well you know providing a location if we can make that happen but you know we need we're going to need help to make this happen as well so um any citizens of the city are you know going to need to step up as well and 10 bucks 15 bucks 20 bucks it doesn't

[1:47:10] matter you go crowdfunding a little at a time it'll get there so just we appreciate it you have to have the 501c approved before you can collect donations yes sir okay how are you going to announce it well I think if you I think you simply have to fill out the paperwork and send it to the state and get it approved by them I don't know that it's a lengthy process but Matt knows very well how to get that done and he'll walk you through the process we'll let Matt help me on that side I apologize that's not my expertise that'll help you okay Matt or are there any comments or anything you want to add to it relative to what we've just said no one thank you and thank you Jeff and All Techs for really stepping forward they have uh committed substantial funds to get the small rolling and we just want to know that council is on board and says yes we want to do that that way when he's out raising money we are the 501c3 uh you know to help with whether it's crowdfunding through San Angelo gives Grant applications now's your time to announce when San Angelo gives this if anybody's looking to participate they'll know when yes no and San Angelo gives us the first Tuesday in May so we will have this up actually two weeks before then now you we'll we'll come up with a way to give before then because Jeff and I need to get enough money in because you've got to get the architectural plans and got to get this whole process bring it back so that you see the finished product and I'm I'm optimistic that this is going to be a great project and that like Jeff said I think I think there's more if we're successful at that okay any questions of me I think Karen has yes and and thank you as well I'll just have a quick question about something you said am I given to understand that the area foundation can

[1:49:13] act as a 501c3 umbrella over this project while they are in undergoing the application process because the acquisition of the designation can take up to six months yes uh so they've got options they can create their own 501c3 and be and have their own board and it lasts much longer organizations can also work with us like what we've done with getting the the restrooms built for MLK Park or the Buffalo Soldier Memorial we're acting as a we call it a physical sponsorship and we and we really look at those on a one-off basis to see is it if it has a finite life you know if you go create a 501c3 that does some projects but then you've done them and you no longer need it well then you have to unwind it uh and it's for the public good and there's nobody else doing it we our board looks at all those things then we can look at being a Fiscal Agent and stand in as a 501c3 it comes under the auspices and management of the foundation uh so any other questions for Matt okay thank you Matt I think the presentation has a couple more slides I want to make sure I cover everything this slide was just talking about funding some of the strategies for funding the project as we've discussed already and then as part of the resolution [Music] so what we're seeking is for Council to adopt the resolution supporting the private fundraising efforts as we've talked about um the the resolution does not commit the city to provide funds for development of splash pads overall project may be separated into phases as I described earlier the smaller one than the larger one and then the city commits to taking on full maintenance and operation of the

[1:51:14] splash facilities once they are constructed so once they're constructed we own them I think that's the last slide any further questions before someone makes a motion to adopt the resolution moved by Harry seconded by Tommy I promised they talked about maybe adjusting some of the layouts of the splash pads I promise to bring that back to council so you make sure you're in the loop a final we can't have a partial we'd also like to see what the signage where where it's located what it would look like quality of the signage would be important as well we want you to move forward so there is a motion and a second we're open for public comment at this point saying none will take a vote all those in favor of the resolution please say aye and Tom says I even though he's muted I can read yes okay thank you Carl we are going to take a break so we're going to take 10 minutes ready for item C first public hearing and consideration of the following ordinances one amending chapter six Fire and Rescue of the San Angelo code of ordinance by amending article 6.03 section 6.03.31 adoption and amendments and amending article 6.06 open burning presentation will be made by Billy Clemens and two amending chapter 4 building and construction of the San Angelo code of ordinances by deleting and replacing article 4.04 Technical and construction codes and standards by adopting the international codes 2021

[1:53:17] and the national electrical code 2020 with amendments that will be made by Charlie Kemp so we will start with item one which is in fact amending chapter six fire and rescue the San Angel code of ordinances by amending article 6.03 section 6.0 3.31 you're on good morning everyone my name is Billy Clemens of the city fire marshal to open today um going over that the international fire code regulates safety uh requirements non-compliance is a violation that can result in fines more tragically however the lack of dutiful effort in preventing and managing these fire hazards can wage unnecessary damage and even cost lives fires are always going to occur but when we convince can prevent them as much as possible and when we spend and we have spent a potential deal of effort in already doing this through code enforcement standards and even safer and more responsible practices but there are no possible ways to prevent every fire unwanted unwanted ignition may be under a votable maintaining the life safety of building occupants protecting emergency emergency responders and limiting the damage to the buildings and its contents is our goal and it should not be impeded or diminished it is our duty to ensure that we build stronger safer more affordable and sustainable buildings starting off I'd like to uh say a special thanks to everyone that was on the 2021 fire code committee uh Chief Patrick Verdi Kai Frankie Paul Parker Shane LaBarge Carrie Meyer Russell Pell Brooke Werner Ryan Matthews Paul willerson and Holly both these were our committee members all getting together having meetings and discussing the fire code the city in the past has hired a

[1:55:21] consultant to review public to review public protection classifications or PPC rating in preparation for review by Insurance Services organization or the iso to determine if lower property insurance rates could be placed in effect in San Angelo we are currently at a PPC of one adoption of the 2021 edition of the fire code will assist in maintaining the city's Insurance rating and keeping the Citizens Insurance ratings at his current level or even lower can you go lower than one do not think so uh yes you can go lower than one as far as a scale of insurance ratings uh 10 being the lowest um and it's um dropping lower Insurance ratings um going from a one to a two would increase our insurance ratings for the constituents um so we don't want to do that if we have uh any chance of saving constituents money and keeping our insurance rating at a one but no it doesn't go any lower than one okay um I'm going to go over the key changes from we're currently sitting under the 2015 IFC what's motivating this needing to change to 2021 well with the code changes um normally the codes go through changes every three years normally with the code changes their standards that have gone through the process of being updated because of things that have happened through building ordinances or things that have gone through the process and they've seen not work as far as safety procedures so when they come out with a code or into ordinances it's due to the fact that either something is not working or they're coming up with something more safer more stringent for the building occupants so it's a state

[1:57:24] demand this yes it is something they demand that we we try to remain current uh with all the cool codes and ordinances and as a state and I should say as a city uh how many cities um follow in other words how many cities are still under the 20 2015. cities our size for example currently I don't have the exact number I know that currently there are 22 cities that have adopted the 2021 code in this at least 22. currently that I found going through Google searches yes ma'am but I'm sure that there are studies that have adopted them okay so the other cities maintain at 2015 and have those cities had any problems with their rating of one and their insurance policy yes I'm sure the majority of those folks if they're still under the 2015 they are not they're not sitting at a one reading and so why wouldn't they do it they probably have not gone to the newer standard uh due to the fact of the size um it could be something that they're working on I don't know too many cities that are still under the 2015. most of them have already gone to the 2018 and most of them I haven't gone to the 2020 one yet due to the fact that they're still working out the bucks from the 2021 code but again it's something that we're we wait every six years to adopt the codes so that when they're initially adopted in 2021 that those things can be worked out so why would we go from 2015 to 2021 versus for example 2015 to 2018 what's the significant difference between going

[1:59:27] from 15 to 18 versus 15 because 15 to 21 seems like a big jump so why would we make that big jump if 2018 covers and would still allow us to have a rating of one normally when we adopt the codes again it's every six years we do not adopt every three years because by the time we get to the adoption process currently under the 2015 we were already close to the 2018 fire code so it would not make sense to jump right into the 2018 when we just initially adopted the 2015 and that's why we would wait until the 21 code came out and then adopt the 2021 code the 2018 code only had a few minor changes in it which I'm about to go over and then I'll talk about that and the 21 changes as well go ahead um under the 2018 some of the key changes the hazards related to outdoor pallet storage higher education higher education Laboratories mobile food trucks and plant processing and extraction activities were addressed in new Provisions that was something that was not covered under the 2015 code but is now covered under the 2021 what are those Provisions uh under the outdoor pallets they're requiring a sprinkler system if under canopies Eaves or out overhangs they must be stored within not stored within 10 feet of any lot line they have to be less than 20 feet in height and not over 400 square feet per pilot High pilot pile you're limiting in their size and they're actually causing them to have a sprinkler system if it's under canopies Eaves or close to the buildings

[2:01:29] for the outdoor pallets under labs for higher education it's more on lab safety extinguisher requirements stuff of that nature signage Hazard abatement things of that nature that would go into higher education Labs because they deal with a lot of chemistry a lot of hazards that go into into those labs and making a safe environment for the students under food trucks the requirement permits to have inspections done requiring Hood systems for those trucks fire protection fuel systems such as Propane and Gas natural gas tanks and stuff like that they're more regulatory now as a 2015 version was not they added some Provisions in there for the food trucks um also is plant processing their requiring permits for that and then basically plant processing would be the extracting of the fatty oils and um the fats from different plants um I guess it would mainly deal with um the oils and the scented stuff that they would use like potpouris and in that process potpourri what are you saying potpourri what would be the issue the oils for potpourri's uh they're extracting the from the flowers the the plants themselves the oils the fatty stuff to make the uh I guess the incense that they would use that's what that process would be to extract the oil so be more of a cooking process where they would boil everything down extract the oils and they're going through a more of a regulatory thing too and it would also involve um I guess the since the marijuana business has really been really big that part with the THC extraction uh in that

[2:03:33] process as well it's going to regulate that as far as plant extractions there's some new thresholds related to fire areas they've been introduced to the sprinkler protection for group E Group EB and your education facilities not only that their the fire area was over 12 000 square feet and and the floors under the lowest level of exit discharge being required for sprinkler protection but now they've added that the occupant load exceeds 300 persons in any floor other than the floor on the level of exit discharge will require sprinklers so if they have an education facility that is over 300 it will require a sprinkler system that'd be something that applies to this city and and a lot of times that's going to deal with me uh your new reconstruction or renovations and then your manual fire alarms and group a occupancies become needed not only when the occupant load is 300 more but when the occupant load exceeds 100 above or below the lowest level of exit discharge now there was a conception there it would not be required if it was fully sprinklered with the occupant notification devices that are activated during the sprinkler Activation so if the sprinkler is activated if there was notification appliances in the building and they activated then the um actual fire alarm system for that building would not be required so if someone today has not been required to have a sprinkler system does this now mean that a business would have to invest in a sprinkler system um no ma'am this would be for you're not existing for assemblies yes not necessarily business different category different occupancy well I'm confused because it says group

[2:05:36] a occupancies became needed not only when the occupied load is 300 or more but also where the occupant loads exceeds 100 above or below the lowest level of exit discharge what's the level of exit discharge Street you have a level above Main Street and a level below Main Street that's what they're talking about when they say above or below the level of exit discharge your exit exit discharge is going to be your main street or level with the um grade [Music] if I was at a sub level as I was down in the basement I would have to come up one floor to reach my exit point that makes sense that's my exit discharge it would actually go out into the public way leading to a sidewalk or to another area of Refuge so that would be above or below that area all right the next part here manual fire alarm systems and automatic smoke detectors um the systems became no longer needed in group R4 occupancies group R for occupations are basically uh your group homes alcohol and drug centers assistive living facilities uh congregate care group homes halfway houses um this was something that they took out of the 2018 they took it was in the 2015 but took out in the 2018 IFC but we decided we wanted to keep that to be able to protect the occupants for those particular groups specific City thing not required in 2021 yes that is a specific City we're going to ask it to be more stringent than the actual 2021 yes ma'am just to protect those

[2:07:41] occupants in the group are for um category because they're again halfway houses Residential Care um those folks that um I would think those folks would also be important to whoever created the 2021 code you would think so yes ma'am and I really don't know the thought process behind them taking it out but again this was something that was well thought out and we decided that we wanted to keep that in here for those those occupants to be protected more protective than the 2021 code requires yes ma'am that's what that's what the thought process is to be able to protect our our folks under chapter 12 on energy systems for the installation operation and maintenance of energy systems uh used for generating historian energy that chapter was added to the 2018 and under that section it was basically talking about batteries generators and those rooms that store those um photovoltaic power sources or solar power systems and battery storage they added that in there because of all the systems that are coming up for solar panels and the newer systems coming up for battery storage and your generators for backup power that was added to help protect again those areas and this is in the 2021 or is this our own deal no this is out of the 2018 it was a chapter that was added in 2018 and it does continue in the 2021. they actually increased it in 2021 which I'll go over as well um also the guidelines for gas detection systems were revised more adequately and reflect industrial practices the gas detection systems are the ones that are actually installed in buildings we're not talking about handheld detectors those are a different subject but the guidelines for gas detection systems would mainly

[2:09:44] be those would for maintaining the testing systems for buildings that have again Laboratories and stuff that deal with gases things that would be hazardous in those conditions and they have those gas detection systems installed in the buildings to alert the occupants and it's an early detection system for them so it was a guideline that was actually added in there for those systems to adequately maintain tests and protect the occupants that's 2021 it's not something we've come up with to add to it no ma'am it's out of the 2018 that was something that was added in 2018. my question is if you go back to the group home things where we're going to ask it to be more stringent than the 2021 are we expecting these group homes these halfway houses those other group four I guess occupancies are they expected to immediately upgrade man most of most of these group homes have already done so under the 2015 code we currently may have only had one group home that's come to us that does not meet that standard already but yes they will have to meet that code that they've done it yes ma'am so it would be fine really to just leave it as a 2021 without I think we I think we would be doing an injustice if we did so because again we want to try to protect those and taking them out now if we do get new group homes or our congregate care facilities that would not apply to them and again we're we would not be able to protect those occupants as well as we do now these are early detection systems that are built in to protect the occupants because a lot of times they they get

[2:11:48] confused they're not able to get out on their own as quickly as they should these are care facilities that require a little more special attention and I think it would be a remiss if we took this out and neglected those I don't question that comment I just questioned why we would be more stringent than the 2021 code that's it's just yeah the state would have their international fire code would be astringent as possible and I'm just surprised that we would want to be more stringent not that that isn't a need it's just it's not in the 2021 which I find interesting I did too but again I felt it was necessary that we keep this for the the residents and to be able to protect them um especially since they're um in need of assistance uh as it is and we want to be able to better protect them so that's why we left it in here now we're Switching gears to the 2021 under the 2021 they added a requirement for additive manufacturing or what they call 3D printing equipment and operations for both non-industrial and Industrial applications are now provided for that process 3D printing has come a long way um again the non-industrial type 3D printing is the stuff that you normally see in everybody's homes if they're doing 3D printing it would be something that would be um self-contained they don't use inner gases to be able to use those and they do not create a hazardous atmosphere now on the other side of that the industrial ones they do so that's why they came out with this code with the 3D printing because it is going to require operational permit it's only allowed in manufactured facilities they use inner gases to be able to clean and maintain those systems and they have to be UL 2011 listed and approved

[2:13:53] again with this 3D printing they actually have to have collection equipment and to be able to get rid of the dust and the explosive atmospheres out of those systems and that's why they built this provision into the 2021 because it currently entered the 2018 they did not have anything like that the fine propagation performance and permanently installed and artificial combustible combustible vegetation is required to be verified when exceeding certain Heights located on roofs or in close proximity into buildings this came out due to the fact that they were having fires in these large hotels where they had large vegetation of the plastic type and they had them on rooftops and close proximity to the entrances of buildings these plastic vegetation causes a lot of smoke and it does create a lot of issues for firefighters with Ingress and egress of occupants so they came out with a a requirement to be able to reduce the number of artificial um plants and vegetation are we expected the artificial plants to be flame retardant no ma'am they only they only came out with this uh to be able to reduce the amount of vegetation on rooftops and in front of the buildings not necessarily to make them flame retardant they're keeping an artificial decoration [Music] um located more than 30 feet from any entrants to to the buildings they're keeping it at a six foot uh height for like say your palm trees that some folks would like to have because they're artificial but again they don't want to have all that right up against your front entrance or your building uh to where if it caught fire people cannot get out or they can't see their way out or on rooftops where again they have issues with that

[2:15:57] okay um but again that that part is for um six feet tall permanently installed and within five feet of the building or on rooftops so if it's in a pot then it's not included in this it's not permanently installed yes ma'am it's not included it has to be permanently installed on the rooftop or in front of the building so one of those palm trees could be in a pot and be okay it could be yes ma'am because it did not cover the um the movable stuff like pots and stuff that could be moved very easily I don't see a six foot palm tree in a pot but if it did it would be a big one yeah okay um the next one would be Provisions for emergency responders Communications we're revised to reflect the expansion of such systems Beyond radios and the need for increased performance in such systems they came out with this um because some of the buildings that we go into we lose signal strength with the radios so they're incorporating the systems into the buildings to increased or boost the radio frequencies in certain areas though certain areas being stairwells communication centers uh passive egress those areas that were needed and critical to firefighting capabilities so does that mean it's got to be taller than a one-story building or no ma'am it does not stipulate that it just basically says that if um if it's greater than 95 percent signal in all areas and 99 greater in critical areas then we're good if it falls under that then we may have to increase with a booster panel to be able to increase the signal for the firefighting capabilities and this would be for all buildings that would fall under that one of the biggest issues with that is the following is that many of these old

[2:17:59] historic buildings have very thick walls even when you're trying to get internet connection the internet connection is not a good internet connection because of the thickness of the walls yes ma'am we haven't had a big deal of issues with radio connectivity here and those buildings that we've had issues with already have these systems installed so I don't think we're going to have issues to be honest with you it was just something that was added to the code and it was a significant significant change so I wanted to make sure it got in here so any of these things we could exclude if we wanted to be following because as we have done before we've picked and choosed or added what we wanted or didn't want you could but again these are things that if we started taking those out could we do some of our firefighter capabilities and the safety of our occupants the next one would be sprinkler requirements for storage manufacture and sale of upholstered furniture mattresses they've updated and clarified those buildings part of the update is the new exception for single story self storage facilities with access directly from the exterior basically what that applies to is F1 area is exceeding 12 000 square feet three or more stories are high above grade plane and com and combined areas of all fours exceeding 24 000 square feet and group M fire areas exceeding 12 000 square feet we're located more than three stories above grade level and that would be considered those buildings that require sprinkler systems again so you're referring to furniture stores furniture stores storing and Manufacturing Furniture upholstered furniture mattresses yes ma'am it would be for manufacturing storage and sale for F1 um

[2:20:00] if they're used for manufacturing anything greater than 25 000 square feet would be required 2500 square feet would be required to uh uh will be required to have a sprinkler system installed M would be for the display and sale of mattresses of upholstered furniture anything greater than 5 000 square feet would be considered for sprinkler systems and then your storage areas would be anything greater than 2500 square feet as well the next one is an automatic sprinkler system is now required for open parking garages exceeding certain fire area thresholds that fire threshold is over 48 000 square feet for open parking garages so only if it's over forty eight thousand yes ma'am over 48 000 square feet for open parking so if you have very um you know a um garage that houses boats and RVs required to have this sprinkler system if they're less than 48 000 square feet yes ma'am even if they're open with no walls if they're open if they exceed the 43 000 square feet then yes it would be required a sprinkler system if it is closed that reduces to twelve thousand if it's closed in if it's not open it reduces to 12 000 where they're going to be required that's contradictory a little bit doesn't it not necessarily because in your enclosed parking structures they seem a little more fire safe but again we can't get into those structures uh with fire trucks so a sprinkler system will do a little make like more little sense um in those structures due to the fact that we can't get in there the sprinkler systems will actually uh go off early and put out the fire quicker if they're installed in those those buildings where

[2:22:01] we can't get into a building with a fire truck and fire hose is quick enough is one of the trends right now in storage facilities is open facilities open parking garages for boats big RVs Etc so as long as they can keep it under 48 000 square feet I don't think they would be a problem with open garages it's enclosed garages that you're gonna they're gonna be a little more stringent on because they they restricted at 12 000 square feet on the closed parking garages and it also has a stipulation in here that um thank you that if you have a parking garage that's under another occupancy um is going to be required to be sprinklered other than the only exception is under an R3 occupancy your r3s are going to be uh more of your group type homes it's not going to be a huge garage it'll be under that 12 000 square foot um but fruit homes recovered in one of those other yes ma'am yep okay but that was the only exception for that and we're back to talking about the energy storage systems we're talking about the batteries earlier under the 2021 code it goes into further refine the reflective variety of new technologies and applications and buildings and standalones and the need for proper commissioning indeed commissionings of these systems with the new Battery Systems they are they um they burn hotter than your normal battery the lithium ion batteries burn really super hot and if you have bulk storage of those batteries those rooms could overpower a sprinkler system in no time so with that being said they've come up with uh the construction permits and operational permits for those those type occupancies they're not going

[2:24:05] to be treated as uh incidental areas anymore they're actually going to come up with uh two-hour fire separation from the rest of the occupancy they also must have an automatic fire suppression system built into them either a sprinkler system or on another type of extinguishing system built into it we have a battery storage facility in San Angelo the top of my head I couldn't tell you exactly if it we have battery stores yes but if they they store them as this code reads um I'm sure there are again this is dealing with your photo photo photayic systems solar Powers um those type uh buildings that store and um Mass quantity batteries those types of buildings yes I have a question yes Larry please this last one does that affect residential standard single-family dwellings you're saying uh solar under under that code now it's uh it's going to be more for your commercial businesses does it specify residential versus commercial under that no but the IFC mainly deals with commercial businesses and not a lot of residential all right they've added a new chapter that provided clarification and specification requirements for storage in this the storage of distilled spirits and wines and barrels and casks that was something that that came out for the manufacturing and storage of your wines and spirits to require sprinkler systems for those

[2:26:09] those buildings they're no longer considered hazardous occupancies they're considered more of a higher Hazard but not hazardous materials type occupancies anymore so they've come up with a new chapter chapter 40 of the IFC which covers those for sprinkler systems F1 for Spirits greater than 16 alcohol S1 for Spirits over 16 alcohol for those requirements what about beer beer would fall under F2 and would not be required to have sprinkler systems uh because again it's under that 16 percent distillation so uh it spirits and wines under that 16 threshold would not fall under this um the next one would be Provisions for construction safety um organ reorganization and expanded with emphasis on owner's responsibilities uh new language requires site safety plan and designation of site and safety director basically this uh provision uh goes over construction sites and designation of a safety officer uh someone that would be out there on the construction site to go over a site safety plan to do a site safety inspection of the the site document it make sure that there's no hazards present it's supposed to be inspected daily documents for residential and for commercial development because I can't imagine a commercial okay so again it's not defined which would be nice if it was because I can't imagine any of our home builders having a site safety plan yes anytime you're building construction there's always hazards on the site and they should be doing site safety plans anyway with their their employees they shouldn't be letting them walk around without hard hats and safety

[2:28:11] glasses and and stuff like that because again those are all violations of you know code and we don't want that to happen to them we don't want accidents to happen so they should be doing those site safety inspections anyway but yes you're absolutely correct uh it's not going to be required for residential this is this is dealing with dealing with commercial properties um again it's going to be completed documented and maintained by the safety safety director their safety person that's going to be on site um if they have three or more violations a stop work can be placed by the fire code official until they can satisfactory Assurance a future compliance has been presented and approved by the Fire official so if for some reason I go to a site or one of the Fire Marshals go to a site and they're not doing what they're supposed to they can they can get in trouble for that and then get a stop order until they can come into compliance now this next section is dealing with the ordinances again this was dealing with our group our four homes this is something that was from the 2015 that we wanted to keep and make sure that we are able to protect our our our occupants for these group our four homes and again the manual fire alarm systems would activate um with the accurate notification system in accordance with these sections and and be installed in these group R4 occupancies and I know we went over this this section A little bit but a manual fire alarm system is not

[2:30:14] required in buildings not more than two stores in height where all individual sleeping units and con and contingent attic and crawl spaces to those units are separated from each other and public and common areas not less than one hour fire rated partitions and each individual individual sleeping unit has an exit delivery exit directly to a public way egress court or Courtyard these are all exceptions to that for your group R4 homes more exceptions manual fire alarm boxes are not required throughout the building where all the following conditions are met the buildings are equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installable dose sections and the notification appliances will activate upon the sprinkler water flow and not fewer than one manual fire alarm boxes installed at an approved location those all three have to happen in order for that not to be required your manual fire alarm boxes and residents or patient sleep in areas should not be required it exits were located at all nurse stations nurses control stations are constantly attended staff locations provided such stations are visible and continuously accessible and the distance of travel required in section 907 are not exceeded and again this is all dealing with our group R4 homes and then your automatic smoke detection systems also activate during occupant notification occupant notification systems uh yes ma'am um I shall be installed in the corridors waiting areas open those corridors and habitable spaces other than sleeping units and kitchens again we're trying to make those the spaces safe for the occupants um smoke detectors these are exceptions the smoke detection inhabitable spaces are not required when the facility is equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system again with the sprinkler system a lot of times you can

[2:32:17] reduce those requirements an automatic smoke detection system is not required in buildings that do not have interior Corridor certain sleeping areas and where those each sleeping unit as a means of egress door opening directly to an exit or toward an exterior exit access that leads directly to an exit so if they have an outdoor the door that goes out to the outdoors from their their living space then they can exit through that and then not be required is it door or window or door door it would be required for a door uh window is considered an emergency doors into their bedrooms everybody has doors into the bedrooms but two doors would be a different story um one door would lead into the public space you like your living area if you had another door that would lead directly outside that would be what about hotels that that you enter from a parking lot into your room they only have one door in yes ma'am and they would not fall under this a lot of hotels have that yeah that hotels can no longer be built here if they only have one door into the room this will not apply to them exception that says that again it's falling under the group R4 homes only this doesn't it does not apply to hotels motels this is our R4 only excuse me um all right last but not let me just I'm thinking through this so if I was to convert a hotel into a group home for example some hotels decide not to continue and let's say they want to be a group home so or some other facility

[2:34:20] they would have to have that second exit out of the room your windows would be your secondary exit windows can be included not under this provision to keep out the sprinkler system or the smoke alarms your windows are considered emergency exit only they're not considered your primary means of egress your doors are so you cannot consider the windows as another primary means of egress their emergency egress only there is a difference and it's it's hard to explain but uh you can walk in and out of a door fairly easy but it's a little more challenging to get in out of a window so that's why it's an emergency exit only in case you have to have that exit out you can use your window but again it's emergency exit not your primary means and that's the that's the stipulation that they're talking about here is having two primary means of exit out of that room yes ma'am and I don't see anyone making a hotel into a group home but it's it's a theory I guess you could talk about but um the last thing I have here uh is the appendix ale under the appendix L it would be the requirement for firefighter air replacement replenishment systems uh and it shall have the following language added uh the provision of appendix L should only be required for the following new construction buildings which meets or exceed 75 feet in height from the lowest level of fire department vehicle access to the floor plate uh of the top floor of the building or structure existing buildings if Renovations are made and if the renovations constitute 50 percent or more of the total square footage of the building new and existing buildings that have two or more

[2:36:22] subfloors or new and existing buildings that have a total square footage of over 500 000 square feet so this would only be for those Provisions under appendix l it would have to be over 75 feet in height [Music] they would have to be existing buildings that are being renovated over 50 50 percent new and existing buildings that have two or more subfloors and new and existing buildings that have a total square footage of 500 000 square feet or more any air replenishment systems are designed for firefighters so when they go into a building of those sizes our high rises that way we don't have to carry extra air bottles with this up and down flights of stairs we can actually go into the stairwell or vestibule and actually refill our bottles right on the floor and I have a picture for reference right here so if you're redoing an old historic building that is 12 stories high is that I'm sure that would have to go through an approval process to be able to get that done um again only if it if it met those requirements and again only since it's a historical building they would have to go through a process to get that approved that would be concerning because we have several historic buildings downtown that need to be redone they're expensive as it is to do it and so the question mark would be this would have to be in the stairwell these buildings yes ma'am under those Provisions it would be and we don't make exceptions for historic buildings again it was something that we would have to be approved again is this a historical building

[2:38:25] um I don't necessarily think that it would be something we could we could talk about but early do you have you wanted to add something to that I would like to I'm sorry I would like to indicate that we do have the international existing building code that does look at historical buildings so there are stipulations in that code that it says if you're not increasing the hazard that there are some requirements that you don't have to meet under the international building code and the international fire code what we needed to hear thank you very much thank you Charlie from for me does council have any further questions or comments on Harry you look like you do I don't want to say that I'd like to take a vote on this one first before Charlie starts on hers because there's going to be a lot of questions about her presentation do we have for the yes Karen just just quickly it seems clear from the conversation that there are often conflicts in language that have to be resolved every time there is a um an update a newly adopted update what's your process for resolving those efficiently again A lot of times we go through the the process of building a council going through the code and finding out what parts of the code we're keeping and what parts were not and then we take it to our legal representatives to make sure that they review the the language to make sure we're not overstepping our bounds so all these Provisions have gone to legal for review um and I'm pretty sure that we may have not had any uh big issues with the language per se and a lot of this stuff that is in the ordinances really hasn't changed from 2015 other than a few things that we've added from the 2021 code the 2018

[2:40:29] and 2021 code I'm going to ask is there a members in the audience who would like to come forward and make any comment on any of these issues if so please come forward good morning mayor good morning Council excuse me Patrick Brody fire chief that's a lot of information to digest and I apologize for the link to that I'm hoping to maybe provide some clarification as far as what ISO why is this important to ISO and also um why are we looking at going from 2015 to 2021 so let me just start off by saying that uh um so there's a huge impact whether we adopt or we do not adopt the new IFC okay so uh first of all let's give the why why are we even considering this uh it's been traditional that city of San Angelo has looked at code adoption every six years why is that will found out that it's traditional across the state of Texas that a lot of State a lot of cities look at code review every six years so Doug a little deeper deeper why because there's not that many changes from 2015 to 2018 and you can see there are hundreds of hours of time and commitment to put into to update these codes not to mention a couple hours at city council to present all the changes so to go through this process every three years would be incredibly time consuming okay and um but we review them every six years because as some of the things that Billy covered so like the filament extract 3D printing five years ago six years ago wasn't really a thing battery storage years ago really wasn't a thing but as we're progressing to energy conservation and solar power a lot of these new safety features have come into play but they're not in the 2015 fire coats so we need to stay

[2:42:32] current update these fire codes why it is our job as public servants at the fire department and Fire Prevention office to provide life safety and property conservation in the best way that we can do that is through updated building and fire codes now another aspect of adopting the fire code may not be as obvious and that is the iso the impact to our ISO we are currently in the process of being audited to being inspected by ISO um and um so ISO rates a city based on their ability to respond to and to mitigate emergencies and fires so the last report that we've got the last inspection that we received was in 2015 2016 and we've received an ISO ready number one and that score was a 90.49 anything above a 90 is a classification of a one which affords every property owner a commercial and residential property owner the highest possible discounts in their insurance so ISO requires fire codes to be no older than five years old and Madame mayor you had made a comment about well why don't we move to 2018. because it's older than five years old as of this year it's five years old as of right now so 2021 would bring us back into that five-year threshold with ISO and well how many points does ISO award a city if if it's current it's not so much how much they award if it's current it's how much they deduct if it's not current and it is 0.71 points if your fire code is not current and we've received a 90.49 last time there is not much wiggle room for us to potentially regress to a a two not much wiggle room at all so it what's the implications and impact of regressing to an iso2 for our city

[2:44:35] every property owner commercial has the potential as a potential of a two percent increase in property Casualty Insurance and every residential property owner a one percent increase in their property millions of dollars for our citizens now I'm not going to say ISO is the only thing that insurance companies use to calculate risk and evaluate premiums but is a large portion they use a PPC rating one through ten a lot of insurance companies will not even insure you if you're if your PPC is greater than an eight San Angelo is a one and we've worked very very hard to achieve that one for our citizens to receive the maximum discount they can and our city has been bombarded with winter storm Yuri two-inch hail we can take do our part to save our citizens just a little bit financially on the insurance side then I'm all in on that you have any questions for me on that well because of those two issues the hail storm and the winter storm there's no guarantee the insurance premiums won't go up anyway that's valid but with if we regress to it too they'll go up even more so there's a lot and I don't pretend to be an expert on premium calculations but our ISO consultant forecasts at two percent for commercial property increase and a one percent increase for residential if everything else to remain constant except just don't want citizens to say hey wait a minute you said they weren't going to go up and I just got my premium and they did go up so what the heck right there is a lot of things I'm sure that that isn't the only issue this iOS rating that keeps that insurance policy consistent and low yes ma'am you're correct any questions I'd like to make something abundantly clear in my mind uh it seems as though there's been virtually little if any of this impact on residential housing

[2:46:39] standards single-family dwellings Etc is that correct that's correct the IFC is predominantly commercial property there is that one section in the R4 and I believe Mr Clemons covered that but as far as your single family multi-family one to two family dwellings predominantly that is going to be under building code not under the international fire code and of course all the different icos would apply to that as well and Charlie can get to into that in the next presentation I also have a question about R4 does that include retirement homes let me call the expert up here Billy and Ryan Matthews hello again this is Ryan Matthews Ryan was actually one of our committee members I'll let him speak on behalf of what they are for uh for retirement to answer your question yes uh R4 covers several different things and the retirement centers is one of them and that was our primary focus when we look to keep the smoke detectors and manual pull stations in the facilities well our discussion about having uh exits I'm just thinking a real Concho manner which is a multi-story building and doesn't have a but one exit from each room I assume correct sir but they do have a sprinkler system that would apply no I don't further public comment District Six the IFC is one of eight codes that I did not read

[2:48:44] because they're all about this thick some of them are a little thinner and so when I wasn't on that committee which I was on many of the other committees and so I did just want to make sure that there was no sprinkler automatic sprinklers required in that book on single family one and two uh two dwellings because on Senate Bill 1410 it states that not sending any other law except for provisioned section c municipality County or Emergency Services provided District cannot enact an ordinance by law order building code or rule requiring installation of a multi-purpose residential fire protection sprinkler system or any other fire protection sprinkler system in a new or existing one and two family dwellings repeat that again it clarified the language for us Rocky come back out here you're not through speak slower and explain that to us a little bit better so you're quoting Senate Bill 1410 section c you're talking about some other code some things or another so yeah it's section 200.011 it just stated the Senate Texas Senate passed a deal saying that that any no municipality I think they have to exceed 1 million if the residents don't exceed 1 million that they cannot pass a code which this one has one in it too that you cannot require sprinkler and one and two family dwellings and there's one also in the IRC which they want to pass section three which we can get into it later section 313 where it says that they're required okay we'll have questions then too so all right so the the items that we're just looking at now do any of them

[2:50:47] violate that for the single family dwelling single family or two family dwellings for um change that he just brought up that Rocky just no ma'am they do not they do not uh so absolutely nothing that has been presented as of right now that laundry list of things not foreign facilities no so what we're talking about right now that laundry list of things is for primarily commercial and group homes yes ma'am okay yeah that that provision would not include uh one or two family dwellings okay any other public comment please come forward on the commercial side of things I really want Osmonds are just do it okay speak into the microphone so we know thank you the ISO what I'm hearing about I got this out of the fire chiefs magazine and I think it was 2011. fire chief there are many states where ISO is still a predominant factor in setting insurance rates but even in states where ISO is not no longer used many fire departments have continued to gauge their success by their ISO ratings they often boast about that an improvement in the iso PPC rating will translate into a certain percentage rate saving for the homeowner and I guess commercial I didn't say strictly I believe homeowner perhaps they're just having a yardstick by which to measure their success some may see it as bragging rights but apparently some may not know where the value may not know that this what that this

[2:52:51] change has taken place ISO is not spending time and money to let people know where to value or their services have been diminished who would well it's possible that some insurance companies might still use isos in any state it is not likely that even a majority of homeowners will see a reduction in premiums in a state listed above and one of the states was Texas listed above so you know it's it used to be a good thing ISO but it's kind of gotten archaic that's proper term and that's great I'm not here to say we're not going to deny trying to save people's lives but uh there's other ways insurance companies are doing business one of them is credit scores this is out of the Washington Post and I don't read The Washington Post that much and it goes on to say insurance companies use a credit-based insurance insurance score developed from your credit reports from Experian Transunion and Equifax and they go by the credit score which is known in the industry as FICO scores I'm not going to read the whole thing you get my drift you probably know it I've never seen insurance company rates go down and inflation and construction costs and all that stuff plays so much into it uh how much did the sewer line go up from hazworthy well I wish that in the construction business all the time and uh got a deal for my homeowner carrier informing me construction costs continue to rise and the possibility that homeowners may not have adequate Insurance to rebuild their home we use the Marshall and Swift appraisal uh calculating thing can't ever get them opted don't appraise them a lot my lot's not going to burn down right but you're paying homeowners insurance on that law oh that's an old

[2:54:54] one by the way Larry you might have heard that one before that's that's his own State Farm is completely out of the iso rating business they did it in Hey where's it say that early 2000s uh let's see and what's the guy say here from State Farm this isn't about ISO doing a bad job it's not always about fire 70 of what we pay in claims comes from loss other than fire theft water damage hell wind storms and liability 70 percent State Farm they have 20 percent of the market other companies have come into it over the years you all can research it yourself at your at your leisure all right PPC state of Texas they're uh 18 in the class one 187 in class two 239 and class three hundred and four and class 4 422 and class five that's the highest number middle middle between one and ten well let's see hold on down here number nine is 478 that's usually your smaller pounds and stuff like that what which class are we in well we're class one correct and uh you know I'm not up here to try to say we're not trying to save lives our fire department does a great job Mr Clements are being very Noble about his opinions on things and uh he comes from a background that is highly trained and uh uh got a he's got a great resume behind him the problem about that it's always from federal money and we can build great things if we had an unlimited amount of money but out here in the real world we got to look at cost unless y'all want to give me some money Council would be willing to give me some money I'll go build a bunch of houses but fire commercial stuff with uh all the sprinkler systems in the world

[2:57:00] you're beeping at me you're gonna let me continue you want me to stop um is that enough we all have any questions I've I've been I've been on this for quite a while and I I'm not trying to put anything down that they're saying but we built new fire stations in recent years we've improved our fire department and all this stuff you had a home like an advocate for the homeless come up a little while go for a group home proud to put the homeless somewhere and then we're going to put all these sprinklers we're going to regulate everything save people's lives and what's going to happen is we're going to be sleeping outside there's too much right we could have caught we can't build it efficiently cost wise it doesn't happen I'm going in the sprinkler system business and I'm not that is no one can get parts right now so we can't open up businesses because it can't get sprinkler heads in order to put on the uh so we can open up the business which is the other problem and over the years I've wondered and I've listened enough thought and I said with all this automation going on is that going to be mean we need to we're going to eventually have a reduction in the need for firefighters and firehouses is that where the payback's coming back to the citizens the taxpayers that fund this stuff is that it's like the automatic cashiers machines at grocery stores supposed to take less employees with all the sprinkler systems and technology is wonderful it's costly right but the space shuttle had a redundancy built into it of eight every now and then it crashes but with all this new stuff is down the line will there be a need or a lack of need for firefighters our houses thank you very much for their public comment

[2:59:08] seen none any further questions from City Council a lot of stuff no problem and thank you for your question about uh are we going to eventually no longer need to have a need for firefighters of reduction and need for firefighters every residence in the city of San Angelo regardless of when it was built and any future expansion of any residents any business any outdoor fire any outdoor anything that would be my concept of that there is always going to be fires what is the purpose of automatic sprinklers to save lives protect property and I won't get into all the data that is associated with how many lives automatic Specter sprinklers save a year but I will respond to the iso question how much does that cost the city ISO does not charge a city to come in and rate them okay ISO is paid by insurance companies why would an insurance company pay for a a organization to go rate fire departments if they did not use the results and ISO rating is nothing more than a risk assessment a risk assessment for fire and the ability for a city to respond to that fire and control that fire it's also a uh the ability it infrastructure of the water system and the um dispatch system with that within that organization within that City so ISO does not charge the city a dime to come to a survey any more questions it's funded by insurance companies insurance companies pay ISO to conduct those studies I wouldn't have an answer to that I

[3:01:12] don't know I don't I don't know the answer to that here's what I do know is that we as a city need to have growth we need development because we cannot afford most of the services that we have without growth and sales tax dollars and in property tax dollars so the more difficult we make it the more expensive we make it to develop in San Angelo if all other cities don't have the same requirements and the same stipulations and the same rules and regulations then we become non-competitive so I don't want to be a bureaucracy heavy City that deters people from looking at us as an opportunity for development and the more expensive it becomes the more regulations the more ordinances the more stipulations the more like go on and on the less likely people are going to look at us as a city and we cannot afford to have people look at us and go nope not there we do as a city council want to make sure that we do the best that we can to protect the health and safety of our citizens that is certainly a top priority but we also want to provide a lot of other services to our cities citizens and that means making development affordable and less costly as much as possible and what I don't want to see I don't know how many pages of things there were that we looked at and read today and I don't have a dollar amount assigned each one of those line items the question mark is how much do all those line items add to the cost of construction for commercial development we're currently meeting most of those codes with the 2015. there's been a few codes added to that and of course Mr Clemens or intertel Ryan Matthews can expand on that further we currently require sprinklers in most of our commercial buildings so as far as

[3:03:18] adding additional costs it's it's just not there one thing that I haven't discussed about ISO and I'm sure somebody's going to argue with me about this but is economic development but but let's look to look at the facts in San Angelo in the last five years would you say that San Angelo has had major positive Economic Development we have this is a reason we have to be cautious about what we approve going forward so that we don't stop that growth absolutely and I'm not going to stand up here and try to pretend that it is all because of iso but it is a fact that developers from outside investors from the outside look at your ISO rating not because they're looking at fire protection but they're looking at your ISO rating because they see a community that invests in their fire department they invest in their water distribution system and they invest in their um in their dispatch centers so if they're investing that kind of time energy and effort and money and to those core those core Services what other areas of that city is going to are they going to get those same Investments it helps with bonds I can't give you statistics on bonds but the number I was given on economic development is a three and a half percent increase from a two to a one a three and a half percent increase in Economic Development with changing nothing but just an ISO one to a two or a two to a one explain that so uh what I mean by that is investors when they're looking at the city of San Angelo for their investment okay if everything remains constant with the exception of an ISO one or an iso2 they're going to be more likely to invest in a city with an ISO one because the city has made major contributions to the infrastructure whether it be water we fire or OB Dispatch Center okay and then the the question remains well if

[3:05:23] they make those contributions to those three services what other contributions are they making to the rest of the city so and and the data on that is the last five years of growth that we've seen in San Angelo five years ago we went from a three to a one five years ago we went from an ISO 3 to an ISO one and we've had huge growth in the last five years and I'm not trying to say that ISO is the only reason but it absolutely is played into it any more questions for me outside of the iso I'm trying to figure out whether this appreciably improved our fire safety can you comment on that as far as adopting the new um yes IFC well one area absolutely will is this firefighter Air Supply system you need two things to fight a fire on upper floors you need water and you need air we figured out how to get water into double floors years ago and that's a standpipe system basically a pipe running up the wall that every single floor you can access a water supply the other thing we have not figured out until recent new years is how to get air to the upper floors so basically it's a standby standpipe system but for air but every floor every couple floors there is a standpipe that a firefighter can plug into fire department already has the technology to access that to access those terminals all of our air packs are already equipped with them so with this new code coming out this was included and Billy was this in the 2018 . so this was included in the 2018 code um it um we decided to include it in the 21 adoption for firefighter safety now as far as Building Safety really the we definitely didn't want to go backwards with the R4 so the 2015 code required sprinkler systems in the R4 occupancy we didn't want to go backwards and provide less protection and not include that in the 21 code so that's

[3:07:27] one of the reasons why the committee agreed to include that R4 exemption in our new 21 code any other major changes that are going to be Financial impact so the current high-rise buildings that we have now that are above two level two levels do they have that firefighter Air Supply no ma'am this is only for buildings over 75 feet tall new construction or greater than 500 000 square feet all of the above or only one of those items because we have some buildings they're taller than 75 feet yes ma'am so it would be over 75 feet and new construction or old constructions not included in this no ma'am we will we are we did not even propose going retroactive with this um now if there's renovation done now if there is renovation more than 50 percent of that entire structure then especially if it's in downtown historic district that's whenever the building code um and Charlie and our departments need to work together and work with the contractors on those buildings because we do realize we have a fantastic historic district downtown Aaron I think you had a comment I'm not sure so I'll just go ahead and say it if it's irrelevant excuse me but I'm listening to the things that you're asking for and I'm wondering how and if that impacts your ability to attract retain good as far as being it having an updated fire code that doesn't there's that that doesn't really come into my retention and recruitment um I don't know that I've ever been asked during an interview what fire code that you are operating out of now but on the other side of it whenever we are on the prevention department and trying to hire for prevention Personnel fire marshal or other inspectors investigators that question does come up and the reason why is say that they are familiar with the 2021 code but we're

[3:09:31] working out of the 2015. they have a learning curve or vice versa if they know the 2015 code and we're operating out of 2021 they still have another learning code curve there so there could be a small impact on recruitment but I don't see a sizable one you know speaking of questions that are asked I meet with a lot of developers on an ongoing basis a lot I've never had a single one of them ask me what the iOS code what what our iOS rating is before they make a decision to come to town I think as far as a major commercial development whenever Kohl's came to town in any any conversations with that or okay I can just go by the data that I'm given and this is our our consultant given me this data look at market conditions and Market opportunity they don't look at iOS ratings they say can we be successful in that City based off of the demographics of that City and that's what determines and most of it is house counts roof counts most all large retailers and or development relative to that it's rooftops they count the number of rooftops in a city in an area and determine whether the rooftops can support the business model that's their number one objective okay any further questions for us how involved were the building and construction people in your committee on our committee um we had uh it's Gary Mayer so we had Kai Franke who works for kfw architecture Ryan Matthews who works for intertell Brooks Winer he's at automatic fire

[3:11:35] uh architecture Russell pill engineering and Shane LaBarge he is a automatic fire Paul Parker said all my fire as well I think my question is because you read those names often I appreciate them because they've been good they've done a great job of investing in our city but they seem all to be attached to the fire sprinkler system business we don't really or the architectural business we really don't have commercial development people involved in that that committee doesn't sound like it to me I could be wrong when you list those names but that's not what I heard no we do not have any general contractors from the commercial side included in this uh in the committee but do we have any commercial contractors that have a problem with the document system submitted so far I don't know but I mean I would think if we're going to do this we would get commercial invest in commercial development people involved in it to get their opinion they might not have changed anything they might not have had objectives to anything but I do think it's an important part of the committee involvement yeah both this atom and the building codes all went to the development task force and the building the board of building standards so there were multiple opportunities for those groups particularly the development task force to be involved in addition to the committee that that we had for for both so I think there was ample opportunity on both sets of codes hey John I'm sorry let me let me ask this question John what concerns were expressed during those meetings that pertain to what's been presented at this point as far as is this like new to you what you're hearing right now is this something that was expressed and talked about I don't recall any opposition to the fire code itself okay you have to come to the microphone to speak self

[3:13:38] I'm what my my discussion was about ISO that's my what my discussion was these folks these fellas these men and women involved they do it and they do a noble they do a noble job and that wasn't uh you know jumping from the 15 to the 21 is a jump in any code book but when they start we start talking and I either have by knowledge or experience or whatever think or know or have objectivity to it and I don't say anything about it then shame on me when they start talking about market economics why San Angelo has been doing so well because of an ISO so rating drives economies in the last few years from a market standpoint it's two and a half percent interest rates that's what drives it now there's seven our listings in MLS have doubled for the stuff to sell in the last less than a year consequently economics is driven by a number of things main thing was the low interest rates now we're dealing with inflation been there done that from the early 80s when interest rates got up to 18 percent inflationary period of the 70s that's what drives Economic Development the most interesting plus you know the last couple years the government took what 7 trillion dollars and gave it to everybody told them go home you know okay any other public comment on this conversation at this point

[3:15:42] I would still like to hear something from the construction and Builders because they're working on a relatively thin margin already and this could affect them very bad we have someone who would like to come forward and speak towards Larry's comments please folks I'm Tony Johnson Builder and developer I'm not a commercial Builder but I do know some about it um in in looking in general in looking at the codes uh the far code uh we really had no exceptions the residential Community construction Community had no problems with the fire code coming forward uh as long as they brought the caveats forward that we had adopted in 15. so I think those have all been agreed upon um so we have no issue with this new fire coat commercial builders commercial construction companies work on a Cost Plus basis so if something costs more they just attach their additional 10 12 15 20 onto it and the cost gets passed along commercial building there's much more there's much more money if you will in commercial building than there is in residential and so commercial builders in general I think do not look have to look at cost as closely as we do and so just a couple of points clarification there thank you Tony okay so Harry I think you were going to make a motion or something actually wait a minute second part to this item we were going to do the building codes before any motions were made if that's okay no I think we wanted

[3:17:44] to pass one and then move on is that right what's your preference I I I'd rather I'd rather make the motion on the on this first part to adopt the the fire code AS presented uh and then go back to the second one my only concern about that is there is interplay between the two codes so if you adopt this one and for some reason don't adopt building codes that could cause some concerns regarding enforcement but we'll deal with that when that comes well then let's not do it let's just move forward all right let's go on to point two amending chapter four building and construction of the financial code of ordinances by deleting and replacing article 4.04 Technical and construction codes and standards by adopting the international code 2021 and the national electrical code 2020 with amendments good morning mayor council I'm Jordan Camp building potassium some of these um slides I will say that Billy's kind of covered in regards to the international building codes the I codes the National Electric Code we do look at these every six years to see if this is something that we want to do is move forward on adopting those yeah these are the current codes that we were under today with the Amendments um one thing I will state that's not inside is that there are currently 46 amendments made to the current codes we are asking to move 43 of those existing amendments that's why you received a 30-page document 43 of those are existing and we're looking at continuing to have those adopted and then we have six that are revised it's the wording just some changing of the wording and then four new amendments that we're asking to be looked at today we did meet we with committee staff

[3:19:48] Builders construction board in regards to these amendments these are the codes that we're looking at wanting to adopt today are you going through each one of those I'm sorry we need to go through each one of those yes I can go back yeah if there's 43 that you're asking us to adopt we need to understand 43 of them is that what you're saying oh my misunderstanding no I apologize what we're going to do is um we're going to touch on the ones that are not in place today okay so starting of those are there um we have six okay okay so the others are things that you're asking to us to pass but we already do yes they've been in the ordinance some of those have been in the ordinance since we started adopting the international codes and that was back in 2000 and they've just continued to stay um for example like uh one of them is indicating like a nail size so it still says the same thing in the current code that it did back in 2000 and we're just asking to recognize to use a certain type of nail instead of um it's as a 12d we're asking to use an 8D those are some of the common amendments that we are just moving forward that we have for the last years so that would be a change from 8D it would be a change from the code but it's in a it's a current Amendment to the adopted codes today so the first one that we're looking at that's um a little bit different is we did um exclude patio covers in the international billing code when we adopted the 2015 I'm asking that we do put that back in we're seeing more outside venues with covered patios and things like that and it just kind of helps provide a guideline what would

[3:21:51] that be yeah describe that um the patio covers it like for example if you have a bar and you want an outside patio for that bar and then it it gives a little bit more leniency on how close you can go to property lines without having to fire rate and things like that it gets more specific in that and you'll go over all those I I apologize I did not bring the whole appendix well we're going to want to understand what the requirements are and the changes if you're bringing these to us for review okay fall okay anything that you're asking about what the change would be generally if you know does is it allow us to give you more leniency as far as like say your type of construction it indicates now like if you do do a cover patio and you have a a type 2 which is non-combustible material that you have to mean that that type of construction on those patio covers with this appendix in place it gives you more leniency to do like a like a flame retardant type cloth material and then you can also attach that that patio cover to your your building or structure this one offers more leniency than what is it currently in place because we we actually excluded it from the last adoption and the second portion is your change of occupancy what we're asking is if a structure is vacant for more than 24 months that they come in and get a certificate of occupancy one thing that we are seeing more and more is that companies are coming in they want their own certificate of occupancy to do that we do have to go out and do an inspection and we're just asking that to be put in place in if if the structure is has been vacant for longer than 24 months and that's not as a rental but as a

[3:23:55] purchase I'm sorry what was the question I think the revolves around whether it's been vacant for more than 24 months regardless of whether it's a purchase or a new tenant yes ma'am we are looking at removing the tables for the energy code under the IRC and replacing them with and you'll see in in a moment that that new tables all the other changes and and confused about that because in in the documents that we received it says um this is on page 11 of 29 it says table n1102.1.2 and table n1102.1.3 which shall be changed to reads as follows and then at the end on page 28 of 29 it says delete tables are 402.1.12 and r402.1.3 and add table 401 2.14 so we added it page 11 and then we deleted on page 28. we're deleting it out of the energy code we're adopting one through six and we're making sure that that it's indicated that we are not adopting the out of the energy code it is stated as table in 1102.1.2 and then it in parentheses it has r402.1.2 I believe and what we're saying is we're deleting those tables and we're actually replacing them in the under the international residential code with the new tables and do they when you ask to delete it and add it without them R4 r402 Point whatever the equivalent U factor is listed on these tables on page

[3:25:57] 11 are the same youth factors and the same insulation of fenestation administration requirements as listed here on page 28 are they one in the same or they're different numbers no they're one in the same so there'll be nothing different on page 11 on these tables correct than what you're asking to add on page 28. correct the table no our Factor changes no anything 's the same we're asking want to be deleted one to be added and the deletion and the addition equal the very same or why are we yeah and adding let me jump in the the way the the reason the ordinance is written the way it is is instructions to our code provider so what you're adopting are the changes that Charlie's talking about this is what's going to go to the code writer so when they are publishing our code they know what section to need delete and where to put the new section which is why we delete that entire section 4.04 and then add it back with highlighted and underline changes so you can see them in context but most of that delete an ad is instruction to the code writer and it does make it a little confusing I've told my staff like 15 minutes if I'm reading this and I spend a lot of hours reading these dogs right and I'm going through it and it says what it says which shall be changed to read as follows my assumption is if I am to read it as follows and it designates the equivalent u-factors insulation and fenestration requirements I can't say that word fenestration whatever that means then I'm assuming that that's what I'm looking at right but then I go down 20 uh seven pages later and you tell me to get rid of it well it's being moved so we're deleting it from this section and moving it to

[3:27:58] this section but are there change what's the benefit of moving it if there aren't any changes to it and that is my question are there changes to it because why move it if there's no changes yes ma'am and I apologize I misunderstood your question yes there are significant changes that's my point yes and it there's a this table here will help show those significant changes as you can see what I've indicated is in the 2009 what it reads in the 2015 each line item what what it reads we made amendments to the 2015 that really reflect the 2009 I codes in regards to this table okay so in 2021 you can see that there is quite as massive jump from where we are today to to get to 2021 we understand that that's not you know the cost would be ridiculous so what we were asking is to take it in baby steps initially and asking on the r I'm sorry the ceiling our value to look at it to be a 38 and the other numbers that are in place are pretty much in line with What's um under the 2015 and or what we amended under the 2015. so if I understood a lot of what the Home Builders Association their concern was was the r value for that ceiling because they are asking to stay with the 30 instead of going to 38. and so you're recommending what the 38 what are we recommending here what are we talking about just to get a little bit closer to take a baby step closer to the the codes that we've adopted um other cities that are somewhere like Abilene they have they've adopted um the 2021 with that Amendment to the 38 as well now I will say that on their uh wall framing insulation they did go with the 15 across the board they didn't make that um

[3:30:00] stipulation or the 13 plus one but that's what we have in place today and that's what we're asking to can continue to keep in place today 38. or the 30. I'm sorry I jumped to the r value for the walls okay so the ceiling r value we are recommending 30 today we are we are asking for a 38. and what's the difference in terms of expense and the benefit to the homeowner what I've understood and I'll go to my next slide soon there you go so the um when we met with the Home Builders Association and the construction board it was indicated that this would cost about a thousand dollars increase um that'd be approximately about five dollars more per month on your mortgage adding about sixty dollars a year according to the Texas I'm sorry the department of energy they've indicated that it would save 174 dollars per year just on that one just on that one line I got all those other things that you're going to ask for additional expenses too so nothing else on that chart is going to cost a single penny more correct we're leaving we're leaving the rest as is so basically Charlie on that chart you're you're recommending they go from the 2009 to the 2015 standard not to the 2021 standard in relation to this insulation question that's correct I don't I just want to read this I think it's relevant it says the increased table values in the 2012 iecc and the 2015 iecc did not show justification for the cost increases from the 2009 iecc studies indicate nationally almost a six thousand dollar increase to the cost of constructing a single family detached

[3:32:03] dwelling with a 13-year simple payback with Statistics showing that for every one thousand dollar increase to the cost of construction nearly 206 000 potential home buyers will not qualify for a mortgage this increase disqualifies approximately 1.3 million families from purchasing a home every year that equates to approximately 24 billion dollars in potential taxes revenues never been generated for municipalities just a little fact there Charlie to make sure council's aware on this one this particular item is the one the Home Builders Association is requesting that it stay at the 2009. that is correct staff is recommended going to the 2015 one note of that I think if you'll clarify is that the state of Texas has adopted the 2015 so like if you're building out in the county now you're required to go with the 2015 standard the city we're at 2009 but if you're building in Tom Green County that's the current standard correct you have to come to the mic you have to come to the mic nobody can hear you over there so you said the 2015 does state r-38 but it also has a provision in there where our 30s allow Ed it has a provision for R30 to be allowed and what does that mean what would be the trade-off to get that R30 on your outside plate R30 there what you can on Gable roofs a little difficult on hip roofs but you're not going to get it with R38 either on the outside and that is one thing that under your energy code you can get trade-offs like if you do you know certain things and a lot of times with that one thing I would like to point out is that if we did

[3:34:06] um move forward and do the R38 the rose check and that's the the forms that they use to do the process they would use the 2015. they would not meet the 2021 if we stay at the 30 if we stay at the 30 they'd have to use the 2009 to get it to to meet they could do that outside play story no is that not true it is kind of confusing because there's it does talk about trade-offs but a lot of times to be able to get those trade-offs you have to I find that you would have to use the rest check to play with it to figure out how to get those under the plumbing code we didn't um see really any significant changes that we haven't already put in place except where we are deleting sleeving out of the ordinance because it is in the code now leaving inside an existing cast iron pipe is that what you're saying um when you're sleeving some of your like um your water line and your sewer line when it's in the same ditch we put that in as an ordinance now it is required by code not necessarily it's leaving an existing line it's new construction um on the national electrical code and some of the changes that we've made there we the code requires you to put it um in a still jacket um and um there was some we had made an amendment made it a little bit more strict we've we've removed that Amendment saying that you can um use like an aluminum for your conduit so it's about what you can use as conduit and that's the change yes ma'am that's actually

[3:36:10] um word for word out of the code so we were just kind of letting letting um electricians know that they no longer have to do that requirement um in regards to like the GFI um and the arc Vault we're still asking for the same thing um except for um well it goes in a little further um on your Arc Vault we're asking that it's you keep it in the for the bedrooms and the closets in the bedrooms only not throughout the house see because I'm not in this business I need better explanation what are you telling me I have to do Arc faults are required throughout the house um this was something that was brought up I want to say maybe nine ten years ago and it was indicated that some of the appliances were actually causing issues with The Arc faults like vacuums and things like that yeah jump yes so what we've indicated or back then we said can we go ahead and come to an agreement with the Home Builders Association that was again 10 years ago saying to allow it or to require it um keep it in bedrooms because that's where you're sleeping so if you had an issue with that and caused a fire it would just give you more time to get out where the rest of the house you're typically awake you're moving around and so we amend that just for to keep the arc vaults in the bedrooms sorry I mean this little thing is not working well today he's just tired energy code um I would like to make um point out that um I did have an error on two typos in regards to the deck testing

[3:38:14] I put in 1103.3.3 it needs to read 1103.3.5 that on Deck testing and also like your integer code testing we do a visual here in San Angelo and this helps cut down the cost not having to get a third party or do like a shut-in test and things like that and so um that is the wrong number on that so I apologize also we take a note of that to get it correct when we yes ma'am okay I have it in there um also we deleted out the the section in regards to um hold on smooth like light censoring and residential indicate that you don't have to have that and so that is going to be under Section it's it reads as r404.2 that's in your energy code it actually needs to read in 1104.2 and I'll make sure I note that but we're deleting out that section for residence indicating that you don't have to have light censoring or dimmer switches we even required it as ridiculous but let me just go ahead and move on and the code that's so we do um on the energy code other than um that we do also look at light censoring and commercial facilities and we've um indicated just in these spaces here and there's a long laundry list on where they would like light censoring and we've omitted those and again that was done in the last two code Cycles okay so occupant sensor controls occupant sensor control shall not be installed to control lights in the fine space types enclosed offices open planner office areas and other spaces standards why what I mean shall not be installed

[3:40:16] what if they want to install them in classrooms closed offices we're saying that yes they're asking him to be placed in these four or these three line items we're asking them to exclude these three um line items so you do not have to put light sensoring in enclosed offices open plan office areas or other other spaces 300 square feet or less I think what your committee went over as far as those items and which ones the committee as a whole was okay with and ones that will be something that the council May I think well to my understanding is that when when we did take this and and it was looked at the major concern was the R value for the um ceiling insulation um a lot of one comment that was made is that um even with some of the changes in everything in that we are adopting new codes like your electrical systems and the electrical wiring for and specifically for new construction on houses that's not changing the same the same practices are following through each code cycle so I I want to we'll open this up for public comment but what I understood was that what the development tasks for meeting group thought they had approved and would be moving forward is nodding did not move forward in the same language as what they thought was approved in that development task force meeting so I'm going to open up the floor for comments on that yes and can I add just one more thing to that it did go to the construction board and there was a four to one vote to leave it as the R30 we chose to change it it has been a recommendation to make

[3:42:19] small baby steps in regards to that I'm Kristen Oliver and I'm here with the Home Builders Association and I was actually here supposed to be here today in support of this proposal but when I was I asked we asked late last week can you please send us a copy of this and sure enough we looked at it and had been changed from what was approved what Charlie was saying was actually voted on by the construction board four to one so had we not asked for a copy of this we probably would have been up here in agreement to go forward with it with what we actually had not approved so that's kind of our heartburn with all of this is that we went through we've spent hundreds of hours these books and I'm telling you the code books are this thick and I applaud the builders who have the fortitude to be able to go through this and do this we've worked great with the city to do this and then at the last minute it's like here again they turned the tables on us so we did exactly what they asked us to do we met we met with Tradesmen we worked through these codes um the construction board was supposed to be the final vote on that it passed the way we thought it was going to and now it's changed so that is our concern that we can go through this process do exactly what we were asked to do and it doesn't really matter because they didn't get what they wanted so they're going to change it anyway I asked for clarification on that I don't know the answer to this but I'm assuming the staff recommendation was a certain thing at the meeting and this no what we voted on what was presented to the construction board was what we thought was going to be presented today was not in fact presented it was changing special just need clarification on that I'm just saying what we approved what was taken forward that was presented to the construction board and what they voted on was not what was presented today I'm just okay well we'll need clarification on what was what you are saying is that those changes that went to the construction board was approved

[3:44:22] by you all and it went forward and it was approved 41 so it was approved in the in the development task force meeting it went to the next group of people they passed it as you all had agreed to during the development task force meaning yet when the paperwork was produced it wasn't one and the same I'd just like to create some clarification on that what was indicated is that we asked for the R38 staff did we met on it a couple of times a couple hours before the the construction meeting they asked to to present our 30. we still had asked for R38 um and then like I said it did that we even asked legal if the construction board had a did they need to vote on it and it was brought to us that the construction board wanted to vote on it so they voted on the 30 not the 38. yes ma'am so the 30 is what was approved by the construction board and it's what the development task force meeting also approved was the 30 not the 38 is that correct yes there was talks about the R38 way before that the last construction board meeting to be honest I thought we were on board in regards to that and and tell the construction board meeting board approved the 30 not the 38. correct but we are presented with the 38 today so you're presented with the options one we need to clarify that the construction board made a recommendation to stay with the 30. that has been said to council that's clear staff's recommendation has always been to go with the 38 and that has not changed that's still their recommendation the home builders recommendation is still to stay with the 30 as is the construction board's recommendation I just don't understand the process because we have a development task force that meets with City staff to work through these issues so that we can have a united front and not go into hours of debate and yet here

[3:46:25] we are today with the development task force who agreed and supported the 30 As I understood and has just been repeated and it was taken to the construction board of appeals and presented and approved four to one as the 30 not the 38. I just wanted to make a couple of clarifications one the development task force is a meeting of the development Community to provide input they don't take votes there is discussions they they tell us they give us excellent feedback throughout the process particularly early in the process but they don't take a vote on a formal recommendation the other thing I would add that maybe we all know but these codes as as Gary mentioned are this thick and there are literally hundreds of items we've gone through and so we're coming to you today with literally one item ceiling insulation that we're not all 100 agreement on so I don't want that to get lost that all of these meetings have been very helpful for all of us to come together on a recommendation but we're bringing to you one item where staff disagrees with the development community and asking you for your input on that but I don't want anyone to think that this process failed in any way because it got us to this point where we're 99 in agreement yes Karen um if we could go back to Charlie's slide that demonstrated the cost to the to the development Community pardon me um contrasted with the benefit to homeowners over the Long Haul talk a little bit more about that Brian can you take it back to that slide there it was it shot past so you show us a dollar amount for savings to the average home the average home owner what about over time can you progress that figure how does it impact them over time

[3:48:28] 174 right so the cost of the the developers and sorry I'm not against development I'm in favor of development I want the city to grow in a beautiful and sustainable way absolutely no question about that but the initial cost is shown here correct but the savings would accrue over time would it would it not and so it would actually be a much larger number that benefits the homeowner yes it could be so the issue is I think in the big picture and this is the reason the Home Building Association Home Builders Association and other development uh community that we have here in San Angelo is that they're dealing with a huge amount of inflation as it is not only in terms of cost of Commodities but also in terms of interest rates So when you say a thousand dollars the average size of home based off of what and what's your base price and what's the incremental value of that home today in 2023 versus what it was in 2021 or 2020 2022. this is just a very small snapshot of what the average home buyer is looking at in terms of continually increasing this value of the home versus just as I quoted the comments on how many people are kept out of the home buying business because every thousand dollars changes who can afford a home not only because of the price of the home but because of the income and because of inflation and or the overall cost of that home compared to two years prior to that so the thousand dollars is just a snapshot certainly one we want to talk about and be aware of but you know what we want to do is to make sure that we keep our business of increasing property tax dollars continuing to grow more people buying homes or more development or multi-family Etc so I get nervous about every dollar

[3:50:30] we add to the price of a home because there's all other factors that are already increasing the price of the average home and thank goodness there are people who bought homes in 21 and 20 because they got a good Great Value relative to today and that's a fact so with that where are we in terms of a public comment I think I see people coming forward come on up and sit down on the front row and add good afternoon single member district six I think some of the problems are with the the way that the amendment is written um on mine page 27 they're adopting the international energy code 2021 commercial Provisions one through six they're not adopting the residential portions of the iecc 2021 and so some of these charts come from the iecc not the IRC or the IBC and the point that was just made nhhb did a study resort to this specific point uh it's it's estimated that the cost of consumer installing the ceiling insulation is 1366 dollars from an R30 during R38 and the corresponding simple payback and Zone 3 is 122 years yes it exceeds our lifetime um the what's the comment you had made earlier on page 11 the table's in

[3:52:33] 1102.12 which it says it will shall be changed to read as follows so we're changing those tables and then my understanding is on page 28 then we're going and deleting those tables and so and some of those tables are from the iecc and then some of them are for chapter 11 of the of the IBC which Charlie is adopting chapter 11 which is the energy part of the IBC tell you as council members I think we're a little confused about the iecc the ircc and the ibcc there's an IPC and IMC and IFC we're not experts and there's something that they're not going to adopt and going back to the IRC and the comment that I made earlier that I wanted to reiterate on the um automatic fire sprinkler system and the code book that they're adopting section r313 automatic fire sprinkler system townhouse automatic fire sprinkler systems is required one and two family dwellings automatic sprinkler systems are required so those are in the code book that you're fixing to adopt and nowhere has that been amended to state that they're not going to adopt that section of the code if we approve this we're requiring sprinklers in every home yes ma'am all duplexes and townhouses right Charlie do you have a comment on that yes I had brought this up to the homeowners association when we first were looking at this there is a state bill in place that says that if you did not adopt it in the 2009 one then that was an original requirement that you are not required to exclude it or adopted today we are not required to adopt it today but we need that specifically in the language I think to make sure that somebody doesn't pull it on us just like they do it on the sidewalk thing so I

[3:54:35] want to make sure it's clear in the language that a single-family home duplex or townhouse sprinkler systems are not required we can't omit that too and again to my understanding when I first brought this up that it was brought to my attention that there was a Senate bill in place and that's why it wasn't on there I want it on there well there's probably another 100 items in this book um just to give you an example of one is um in in that same chapter in 1103.1 I will be required to install a programmable thermostat that is scheduled daily and that the thermostat shall be programmed initially by the manufacturer and the heating temperature set point cannot be greater than 70 and the cooling temperature set point can not be less than 78 degrees add in this it is being asked that we approve yes ma'am I need that deleted foreign there's a few more in plumbing and a few more in mechanical I do want to commend everybody that did meet and we came a long way I think in a short time and we're really close I think we thought we were closer when it went to the construction board and we thought we were approving the r-30 and a lot of these other little things we figured we could work out with the code official and just get her interpretation of them and be able to emit them and that could still happen so I think in general we're in favor of it other than the uh the R38 and maybe some of the terminology in the amendment itself so if we said for example if we said that the motion was to maintain the 30 rating to eliminate the requirement of sprinkler systems in townhouses single-family homes or duplexes and if we also include in the

[3:56:38] motion that thermostats would not be preset and controlled 70 whatever those numbers were you said I can't remember that you want to repeat that again so we get the language correct you want me to repeat what you know the part about the thermostats being preset that wouldn't allow you to be higher than or lower than yes that is section 1103 of the 2021 IRC [Music] um not less than one thermostat shall be provided for each heating and cooling system programmable thermostat must be daily scheduled and it has to be preset by the manufacturer how's the manufacturer going to come to my house and check it out you know how the building department would enforce it we normally we don't have electricity when we have a thermostat on so they don't know what it says or not they just know it's a thermostat so generally that means that there's certain specifications they can only sell thermostats that are set from the factory at those limits but I don't think that intends that the homeowner can't adjust that up and down if they want to yes specific written up for that bringing up those two things makes one very nervous to take a vote on all of this there's a lot of minutia obviously that you're talking about there that quite frankly can be worked out I do understand I mean we can go into this really very specific detail on all those things but you're right I mean there's certain things that just uh quite frankly you're talking about the 30 versus the the 38 we can work within that I'm sure that's not an issue whatsoever but the other stuff I mean we do have our our our inspectors are built I mean our staff is willing to work with you on those items as well uh we could go into the every single detail on that and correct every little thing but I'm sure that's not what you want you just

[3:58:40] want to make sure that you address that one major item yes any questions for me Larry does you seem to indicate that there was some more problems with as you saw and of course I'm concerned about the increase that just keeps going up on costs uh can is there some way you can stipulate what those differences are between you and and the development board I'd like to see what they are because it all adds up yes it does there's some with each code with a mechanical we have to go from an R6 to an R8 um uh there's a couple at the thermostat um we're gonna have to put locking devices on our condensers outside um so people can't come and suck the freon out of our air conditioners it's another added expense and then there's some in each one on the plumbing code there's items in there on each item the electrical code the same way and so yes when you add them all up we're looking you know roughly between five and six thousand dollars that we'll be adding when this code goes into effect so that's why we get into the details we approve at Lock Stock and Barrel as they say then we're approving that those additional five to six thousand dollars worth of expenses are okay is that right yes it's up to the interpretation of the code official um you know like I said I think some of those could be waived and I think if there's a something that comes up I guess you can take it to the construction board and get their interpretation of the code I mean that takes money and it delays and so that's why you try to get it correct when you first go around correct and and between the eight books there's no way the city can enforce every code in there anyway oh um that would just be If you hired somebody that came from Houston or Dallas or San Antonio that they may be

[4:00:44] used to doing that and forcing the book and nothing but the book so then they would be bringing up all these red tags saying well no you didn't do this or you didn't do that thank you another public comment please come forward Tony Jones Builder and developer and I come back up here with some trepidation because I have plats on a number of these people's desk I'm trying to get signs so I'll try to measure what I say carefully if you will uh Charlie had a perfect solution to the R30 R38 conundrum we're wrestling with today that she brought to us on or about December the 1st before our last meeting with the construction board and Charlie's thought or author if you will I characterize it however you will was an option on the insulation and the option was this if a builder wanted to do an R38 he could then do an r13 wall okay if you wanted a more aggressive wall he could do an R15 wall with an R30 attic okay so Builders at that point and customers had an option to look at in the manner in which they wanted to insulate their homes that offer was alive as we approached the meeting in front of the pla construction board and for whatever reason that offer went away whether Charlie got different direction doesn't matter but that offer went away and so now here we are for whatever reason continuing to wrestle with this issue when we had a perfect solution

[4:02:47] before the construction board ever took a vote and they were willing to vote on these options this scenario but Charlie and Austin talked themselves out of it wanted to recommend Dr 38 only so we had a solution but then we didn't and so however that got submarineed it got submarined and so here we are I uh was I guess wrong in doing it was hanging my hat that everything was going to go smooth through the four to one vote we got from the construction board 30. addicts there we are opposition to R38 is there's a curve on insulation and you hit a certain point in your insulation curve by just throwing more insulation on top of existing insulation you don't get the return you need insulation attic insulation fiberglass insulation is only stopping conduction not stopping the other two things and the main thing was not stopping the other two things which is convection with very little but the main thing it doesn't stop is radiation radiation comes from the sun gets here and however fast it gets here seconds light speed goes through everything and there's only one thing that stops IT so you know that's facts that's physics I do have a PowerPoint presentation in my pocket I didn't think I was going to need it I run rescheck and I'll stand up here and not even ask my contemporaries

[4:04:50] whether they run rest check on their homes I don't care I run rest check and it will pass it does pass at our 30. 2015 code because there's trade-offs I ran the 2021 code it was passing but the 2021 code is going to want slab Edge insulation so it won't let you default around it on the 2021 code oh boy is that going to be fun but we're we're uh classified in a zone three area and there's all kinds of stuff that came in on the packet and not you know won't bore you with it but the uh North Central Texas council of governments uh adopted the 2018 energy code with amendments in it that and it said our 30 for the Attic and it basically went back down to the 2009 code brought it with me there somewhere like I said I didn't think I was going to need to do all this problem I guess I need to stay on point about attic insulation doesn't do it just slows down conduction coming from this from the Sun from the roof is a very little component the overall what heats a house radiation is number one a large margin we don't go to NASA I love using NASA space shuttle I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to go to uh outer space they didn't have this aluminum foil aluminum foil stops 97 of the radiation but on the back of a piece of OSB you have to face it down into your attic you don't put it up towards your shingles you've stopped 97 of the well yeah sure

[4:06:52] I've been using it for 20 years you get up there and you test it you shoot the top of your insulation it's shooting ambient temperature you're not going to get it and with the unless you go to the foam seal and I'm not even sure about that you're not going to get an attic to be below the temperature of what it is outside ambient because the most you can do is bring it within four degrees right well they're probably variables to that number I use an infrared thermometer when I started using this stuff because I didn't believe it either and you shoot the top of your insulation your attic insulation and it's shooting real close to ambient and maybe within four degrees I tested a lot of houses and I was satisfied with it so I just kept on using it very inexpensive way to do it it's not in the codes it's not because it's better than codes are minimum gold books are minimum so they don't put in there and say we shall use this insulation attic insulation companies have a lot of clout they say hey let's put some more attic insulation in the code books that fixes everything slows down conduction that's it it's almost ever done your uh duct work is in wrapped in full and they're well like I said I have a PowerPoint presentation my rest check will will work on R30 and that's a performance standard and that leads to this next question like I said I was I thought we was going to you know the four to one from the construction board appeals of uh what else do we need to do we followed every rule we're not violating any rules San Angelo Tech Tom Green County is in the attainment classification of the energy code we can be less than the 2015 coat does anyone know that

[4:08:57] no we don't know that we no that don't you would you recommend that we go with what Tony Jones said where you have variation on the 30 versus the wall versus the ceiling I think it's complicated uh our 30 straight across and let the people decide what they want to do when they're building the house including the builders I'm a spec Builder I don't do pre-sales or Customs or whatever I build my house that's the way I want to build them and I wrap them in full charge talks everything I'm thinking about going trying to foam some Rafters in the ceiling with the open sail just to doing maybe improve the the efficiency of the house but you can only an open cell uh I mean this is another story probably shouldn't bring it up here but you're only getting to 27 out of an open cell oh so I use reschek commercial people use Comcheck a computer program by the doe that allows you to put inputs to your houses to each section uh relates it how much you're beating the code established code I beat it with the 2015. it's tougher from the 2009 is getting about I was getting about four percent better than the 2009 code versus the 2015 came back and it was tight but the 2015 code was a was a mean one it was it was all over the country people were we've got political the energy code is a political thing it's not run by the eye codes it's run it's it's political it's overseen by the Comptroller's office and Seco uh

[4:10:59] like I said I contacted got Seco this morning because I just heard about it and uh about the North Central Texas council of governments which is in the uh class same class zone we are of three about the Amendments they did in 2018 and he texts me back quickly uh North Central Texas council of governments is their own governmental body there isn't anyone that would stop the Amendments from the passing so yes the 2018 iecc amendments passed they basically went back down to the 2009 and there's a whole bunch of stuff out there that I didn't bring I didn't think it's been needed that's talking about how much longer it takes to do these payoffs of these increases and I didn't take the memory I guess I should have but there's stuff in there on some of these codes it's a 25-year payback it takes 25 years it's a little late insulation was one of them I didn't bring it I can't verify it but I do have a PowerPoint presentation I'm too late and uh to present it I hear but that's for next uh but one thing on the cold Charlie uh my friend uh I got confused when you said that I could use res check on the 2015 did we eliminate r405.2 on the Performance Based compliance it's not a lemonade well I'm getting worse than it is this is the 2021 I've just condensed it down but that's under the energy code so you have to go back to the residential code and make sure that that warnings has this been eliminated because that eliminates rest check well price checks allowed to enter your

[4:13:02] International residential code and chapter 11. you gotta explain it to us I'm sorry the rest check that computer system is allowed to be used under the international residential code chapter 11. what does that mean to us and that code here says we don't we're not using this one that's correct okay but this says before you says we can yes what are we arguing about well I want whatever we adopt for registry could you speak in the mic people at home I would like the uh the rest check portion of it to be like the two to the 2009 the 2009 was a big deal also they've increased the requirements on 2009 cold book because here we are technology and everything passes but what they have found out over time the cost benefit ratios are not working so they will allow you to go back to the 2009 rev check ing that one out oh to do rest check okay okay but when you say res check why are you telling us res check means rest check's a computer program by the department of energy the commercial contractors use a software called Comcheck and that res check means what though oh my I mean you have an instrument I know I did but if you're going to use it I need explanation so program you put your wall values in of our whatever is and you put your windows in you put your doors in your kitchen talking to Mike there's formality Can't You Hear My Big Mouth front of the house side of the house

[4:15:05] which way does the house face back to the house the particular program I use doesn't take any I'd have to go Advance up to take shading in like where your front covered patio covers your back sliding glass door I don't do that I just run it straight and it gives you a percent either either red lines you that says no you're under the cold or gives you a green light that says you're better than the coke this much percentage are you saying that to simplify because that is a little more complicated and would have to be everyone would have to have that computer program today we have other options available I understand but the other options are based on what's been agreed upon the code book specifically says if you use a computer aided energy program you can use the 2009 energy code so that's something isn't that something so if you're saying to me then you can live with the 30. well I live with the 30 because there's no benefits because I use this okay all right let's get you out of the picture and let's broaden the picture and say you know I'm sorry I hate being a self-interested person oh in the big picture yes yes the homeowners thought in the development task force meeting that all were in agreement with the 30 and that moved forward to the construction board of appeals and they approved the 30. so we're saying as a home is a Home Builders Association as a construction Board of approvals everyone nodded their head yes to 30. four to one vote so we're saying that there's more consensus from a development perspective for the 30 than there is for the 38. okay thank you good question

[4:17:08] you have a question I don't have a question I understand other public comment okay it does not seem like there's any further comment or um words of wisdom so what we're going to have to do is come to make sure we if we make a motion don't table it but make a motion then we need to really understand what that motion is and it's going to have to be very detailed so um who's up for that I think what we need is to table it and have it come back with the things that we've added to this conversation and bring it back we'll come back on a second reading no I don't want to do it a second reading I want it on a first reading so I need correct language to be written and presented to us at our first the February meeting first week of First Tuesday of February mayor yes if I might I agree with you we've already spent two plus hours on these two subjects and I know these things are tied together but I do not want to bring them both back to the same time I want two separate presentations so that we can vote on each one you can vote on them separately today if you want to pass one code and not the other but there is that risk that if we never get the second one because this happened years ago I'm told and it never got the second one ever got passed which made the fire code difficult to enforce and I suggest we move them both back with correct language for our first meeting in February which I believe is February the 7th with the language we want to approve all is is counsel in favor of that

[4:19:13] yes suggestion or a question so I'm not sure what it is can we be sure that we have all the comments that were made today presented to us so that we know precisely what we are voting on I don't I'm not talking about this 14 pages I'm talking about okay if it's if it's R30 then it's R30 if it's okay but give us the bullet points on which the development Community agrees that the building Community agrees so that we don't have what we had here today for another two hours um so can can we have that for me if it's the first meeting in February fine if it's the second meeting in February but let's get it all all done at one time so that we're all clear on what let's aim for the first meeting in February please and so I'm clear the only concern we have in the in the building codes is the 30 and then the thermostat clarification and the other one was there was a third one of the sprinkler systems single duplex townhouses okay specifically anything else Tony please comment um my urine council members I feel like in staff can certainly correct me if I'm wrong but we're going to land right back here in February with this R30 r-38 we're saying our 30. conflagueration so if our dictate is to leave here knowing we're going to have an R30 or as I'm concerned Council I want you to nod your head are you good with an R30 to our 30s the third our 34th our 30. he's there's five of us who say our 30

[4:21:18] is good and that's a quorum but don't get into like the construction thank you okay so do we need a motion to table no I'm really I mean I think Patrick has concerns about where he is and his and has anything approved on first reading which is why my recommendation would still be to approve it on first reading we'll bring it back we're not going to approve it on first reading no yes Rocky Dublin if you would pass it with R30 without the delete of those two tables on the anchor it said R38 and I think we're saying passing both today we can work out all the little details with the code 100 I hey um not based on what Rocky just said if Patrick Patrick has got some stuff he needs to do so let's be sensitive to everybody well what's Patrick's sensitivity you have to pass it but it doesn't say you have to do it by February 1. yes ma'am so we went last week with ISO a field consultants and I assured them that it would be coming to First reading today and of course I didn't have an answer for them because we hadn't met for today but I should have an answer for them prior to the grading process which is going to take them over the next of course this was last week the next two to three weeks so we've got a week to two weeks left for the grading process for the field reps which we should be fine because legitimately I think you can say to the Consultants that passed on first reading on February the 7th there's no reason it wouldn't pass generally speaking on the second reading so I mean you still have a nod forward for them I could not get them to definitively state that if it wasn't officially adopted that we would not take a deduction for it so that leaves me to believe that if it is not adopted by the time the survey that we potentially could take a

[4:23:21] deduction they had that in I mean is that in some language in some piece of paper that says that it's in the schedule it's in this in this you do not have an adopted fire code that is within five years that you'll receive a deduction okay so when was it adopted in 20 uh what was I believe it was January 16. so we're already past that based on what based on what Rocky said I believe the only issue left is the insulation and like with Rocky mentioned and then approve it at the R30 and uh right so the motion that you're making Tommy yes is that we are approving the R30 and we are eliminating the need for Sprinklers and a single family duplex or townhouse and we're eliminating the enforcement of preset thermostats for homes requirement I can work with the building official on all the other things that that might come up um and uh resolve those so that would be that would be my motion is there a sec oh is there in a minute after I get is there a second for that second is that a strong second or uh because that didn't feel very confusing to me waiting on Gary okay Gary Come forward before I have a kind of second he asked if that clarified that he can use the rest check 2009 if the R30 was approved and I indicated to him yes we can but he would wanted that you're going to write that in the document and that's going to be included in your motion it's going to be included in the motion there's that option and the second is on that option right okay we're clear so let's go back and and clarify what the motion is before I

[4:25:26] vote R30 no preset thermostat no sprinkler in duplex and allow um whatever Gary calls yeah the res check do we need to specifically ask for Comcheck too press check and contact no okay okay Charlie can you work with all that okay all right motion and Larry is that the second that you're making to that okay with that any further public comment seeing none will take a vote all those in favor of the motion that Tommy laid out say aye aye aye aye aye motion passes five zero no he's off all right no I'm quite that he he's he's taking a nap all right we are now moving on to item d first I tell you what we have a lot of people in the audience I think for Cox Lane yeah Cox Lane where is it on which item is it on okay it's D so let's get it done because we've got lots of people who've been sitting here waiting for us to do deal with this so first reading and public hearing of an ordinance approving the abandonment of approximately 4060 feet of the right-of-way of Cox Lane beginning nearing 1861 Cox Lane and extending 2 330 feet to the west then 1730 feet South ending approximately 320 feet north of the intersection of Sunset Drive and Foster Road John thank you John James director of planning and development services um I'm just going to move on because there's a better image of that coming up but this well let me go back real quick but this is an abandonment of Cox Lane proposed basically back off the screen

[4:27:31] over here is Bryant and Ben ficklin and so Cox comes down and if you if you've been out there you know that Cox parallels Foster so there are two roads immediately adjacent to each other separated by about 10 feet of of just dirt and grass and so this would eliminate the Cox Lane portion of that we did send out 31 notices to the affected properties adjacent to the abandonment received none in opposition some of the concerns are detailed there um and I'll note that with abandonments like this we only notify the folks adjacent to that abandonment that it would affect their property in this case as you probably know there may be traffic impacts broader than that and so you'll hear from some neighborhood folks we as is our practice we did not notify those folks farther out for this because they're not immediately affected by the abandonment but then here are some of the the comments and concerns that were raised uh that you'll be hearing about this is the uh the latest proposal and I'll note that this the layout of this is not a given and you're not approving that particular layout that's for a later process in the development process all you're really considering today is whether or not to abandon Those portions of of Cox Lane but this is one option of what the reroute of Cox would look like and it would come in and become part view tying into the Park View that already exists across Foster and as you can imagine with Cox being gone that road would tee directly into foster there would no longer be that division that's there this is the city's thoroughfare plan this has been adopted and in place for for decades really

[4:29:33] um the most recent amendment to this area was in the early 2000s um and I'll show you another graphic of that in a minute but what's important here for the future development is that whatever the developer does they're going to have to extend Parkview over and they're going to have to build a north-south collector Street to meet our thoroughfare plan and so when the developers first came to us that was some of our comments to them and the only way to avoid that connectivity would be to amend the thoroughfare plan but of course staff wouldn't recommend that this is the way we build streets and ensure that long-term connectivity is through this thoroughfare plan I'll note that part view was originally planned to connect over to Knickerbocker you'll recall that there's a traffic signal at Parkview and Knickerbocker in fact the city actually had the right-of-way for that entire yellow strip to continue part view all the way across over to YMCA drive back in 2004 that was abandoned that right-of-way so it was decided it would be too difficult complicated to get across this railroad track here and so the the right-of-way for that was abandoned at that point now part of that road exists but it was a piece about like that that was abandoned um and as I mentioned the thoroughfare plan was modified to basically reflect what you see now in 2006 it was modified slightly in 2013 um to to tweak some of the where those roads were located but not real substantial changes uh but then this you know this plan for part view to continue all the way through has been in place for uh over 20 years and so that that's the kind of the stage I'm setting is where we come to it from when a developer comes to us we ask them to meet our plans that have already been adopted by city councils in the past for future roadways uh and again this is just a little bit closer view of that with the aerial

[4:31:35] photography this may come up later when there are questions from the public but again as you see this this street comes in and parallels and then Foster comes in just right beside it those are both designated as collector streets and staff's recommendation is not to have two streets running literally 10 feet apart and so one of our recommendations to the developer was as part of their development we would request that they eliminate that duplication of Roads does the city have to maintain both Fox Road Cox Road and Foster Road now so we're duplicating the expense and effort by having to maintain both that's correct and that's a main reason that we have concerns about having duplication of roads like that I will note this question came up this area is not currently in the city limits but both Cox Lane and Foster are already in the city limits the city limits is basically the right-of-way line of Cox and so the roads are currently in the city limits which is what gives you the authority to abandon it and also what obligates us to maintain it as a city um I may defer some of this if there are detailed questions to public works but they went out and did some uh traffic counts in this area just to show what kind of traffic can be expected I think where there's another slide here this shows the intersection at Sunset and Foster lane where it ties into Cox but you can see here there's how there's Foster and Cox parallel so I think one of the things just to note here is of the traffic coming down Cox and coming to this intersection about a thousand Vehicles a day would be coming going south towards the loop on Foster a little less than 700 would be continuing on to Sunset so that as you think about the further north those 700 exist today yeah that was done I believe last week

[4:33:39] is when those counts were done uh and so if you imagine this part View Street coming in and teeing in here that gives you some idea City staff believes that most of the traffic that would come into a future stop sign there on Foster would be turning South on Foster either because they're going to the loop or they go on down to Sunset and over to Knickerbocker because there would be fewer stop signs impeding them versus I think the neighbors concerns rightly so is that some of that traffic would go on Park View through the neighborhood so again I think what these traffic counts show is that at least a fair amount of that traffic would be going south rather than through the neighborhood as I mentioned staff staff doesn't believe that traffic patterns would be negatively affected the removal of Cox Lane would actually reduce that duplication both in terms of traffic impacts but also as you mentioned mayor the uh maintaining those basically a duplicate Street as normal with an abandonment like this we notified utility providers and the utility providers did not have any concerns the developers may have to move some utilities either out of the right-of-way or maintain an easement but that's all stuff that's worked out later in the subdivision process and again as the public benefit would be to eliminate that duplication as well as the dangerous curve and I think we this is the intersection at Sunset and Foster and Cox this is where you you go on to Cox that direction um this is that intersection where if currently if you're coming in to Cox from the East you come to this intersection here and in fact you can see how Vehicles had had damaged that guard rail when this photo was taken um and so that is a dangerous curve and this redis the elimination of Cox and

[4:35:44] the redesign would eliminate that dangerous curve as well you can see here it's a little hard to see but this part of foster is significantly lower than Cox at this point but that connection with part view would be farther down in this direction and where the roads come closer together and so that could be addressed in the development process so the recommendations at their December meeting the Planning Commission did recommend approval of this abandonment with the conditions that I'll mention by a vote of five to two so there were two of the Commissioners that were opposed to the abandonment most of these are normal requirements that the property owners adjacent would have to replant the properties to incorporate what used to be the Cox Lane right-of-way a quick claim deed we've also added a unique one here the abandonment could not be completed until replacement streets are in place to ensure that all properties that currently have access with Cox would still have access and particularly ensuring continued access for the property at the North End of Cox and I'll go back to mention that real quick so there's this property here really their only access is from Cox and then of course this whole neighborhood accesses onto Cox as well so until those replacement streets are in and I think that as you saw the developers plan would be to continue those streets South until all that's in place the Cox abandonment wouldn't actually disappear and go away what's a time frame for the development that that would I'll defer to the developer who's here to talk about that but from the city's perspective it could be they could come in with plans tomorrow or it could be 10 years from now um and that really doesn't affect your decision on abandonment particularly since uh the abandonment actually doesn't happen until that new development is in place I'll note that it's it's not here we

[4:37:47] don't include the the entirety of the text of those conditions but what we did say on this one was they could abandon it a piece at a time so if they build a phase of their development part of Cox could go away it doesn't have to be all or nothing all at once um that's a lot of information I know I'd be happy to answer any questions I don't have any at this point um Tommy I have a couple John how long excuse me how long has abandonment of that I guess that those sections that section or Cox line been talked about it seems to me it's been a long time well there yeah there there was a case years ago uh it was it was a very different case where um Cox Lane was discussed for abandonment uh we've met with this I think this is the third developer we've met with on this property um and how to deal with Cox Lane was always an issue that the city brought up and as I mentioned earlier uh City staff's recommendation is to abandon Cox Lane and so that was one of the first things we would tell a potential developer is you're going to have to figure out some way to make that happen uh you know both for traffic reasons but also to have it fit in with whatever their development is is being proposed your question but yeah this is not new to this development this is this is something that has been ongoing discussion for a long time that's correct and as I mentioned at the beginning this is only about an abandonment and so for example if you chose not to abandon the street today a developer of this property could come in tomorrow with a plan that could put part view in and connect these other streets um in other words you're not voting on a particular development or whether or not part view connects through into the neighborhood

[4:39:49] um that you're saying that they could come in and develop it and connect it to Cox but not to Foster well they could connect it to Foster as well if they wanted to they wanted to if they create that would they be forced to in fact they they would because we've got this on our plans as a collector street that connects through if they came in for a development today without abandoning Cox we would ask them to connect that through you're going to ask them to do that no matter what that's right Karen uh yes ma'am thank you for me the bigger question is whether the reconfiguration of the roads is appropriate for the existing landowners and city streets um I would like at minimum to see the entire plan and it's my understanding that the developer and I see Hillary has been working on this for a year or more so I think there must be more and I would personally like to see it and I'll commit to come to your office if that's what it takes um but I think that along with a storm water drainage plan are important for us to see they'll both have a material impact on how the roads should be laid out I I don't really want to make a decision in a vacuum on something like that I feel like we're a little bit of a disadvantage because I think there's probably existing information that I'd like to have a look at but you're because this is a thorough thorough FAIR Plan that has been previously approved that conversation about Parkview is in the plan regardless of those issues right and we would recommend that Cox be eliminated regardless of those issues that's the staff position yes and and I would say um and I'll defer to the developer on what additional information they may have but typically uh it's when they would come in with a development proposal which they've not yet done and

[4:41:51] that's the point at which we would look at storm water and all of that is is reviewed by engineering to stand your point to ensure that what we ask of all developers is they'd not increase Downstream drainage issues which they would have to do in any case and so do you have a estimated timeline to complete those four conditions because this won't be Speedy if we if we were to approve the abandonment it's not going to happen right away the grade change between those two roads is over five feet I'm guessing just it varies it's the most at the corner and then it by the time it gets to Sunset they're even so it just it's a slow slope across Ox abandonment might not happen until 10 years from now because unless the developer has a plan or approved plot it's just really the question mark of a banding Cox Lane at some point at some time when some developer decides to do some project is that correct that's right yeah I just like to see the scheme I would be willing to Guess that there are citizens here and it's not my district but but I'd be willing to guess there are people that are concerned about the increase of traffic on certain of those streets sometime and they are very quiet streets and I myself observed I spent several hours out there believe it or not watching and I appreciate the traffic studies that helps a lot to bring it all into Focus but it's quite visible that there are people that are wiggling through over there that odd configuration to get to Walmart and I don't know that we want to plan with a with a goal of facilitating trips to Walmart so I know that ultimately the master plan will be served those things will have to happen I'm just asking for a little bit more you want some information coming up yeah Tommy

[4:43:54] um John I don't want to put words in your mouth did I hear you those four conditions do all four of those have to be met each one of them have to be met before The abandonment would actually be in effect did I hear you say that yes no back to those four things John I think so that is a steep hill to climb for them to meet all four of the for the developer to meet all four of those things well the the first two are just really procedural they have to plait the property which I mean they have to do before any development and then they have to pay the city fee and verification of a quit claim deed that's just basically the city following a deed saying it's no longer ours so those are fairly simple that happen all the time again that wouldn't be immediately because we don't know right and the more difficult one is the construction uh normally a road can be abandoned before construction of something new happens but because all of these people up here get their access from Cox they would effectively have to go in as part of their development and let's assume for a minute they develop it like it's shown here which they're not obligated to do they would have to construct these streets to have continued access to those homes and of course at least a portion of that before they could abandon this portion of Cox if that makes sense um but if they did this phase they could abandon all of this um and the rest of Cox could remain until such time as they do future phases of the development what was the fourth one I think those were the oh the fourth one was just maintain access to this property up here and there's a couple of ways that they're looking at at doing that but obviously we we can't approve something that would cut off access to a property owner well um as we said I think we have do we

[4:45:57] need to have a motion on the floor before we because I think we want to hear from the public maybe before we move forward a bit so if you don't mind we're going to ask for public comment and then we'll make a decision on emotion I have a question ma'am oh yes Larry has a question you had two knee votes on this I just was curious what their rationale was it was just basically the concern the neighbor's concerns about traffic and they didn't I don't think they felt ready to approve an abandonment at this point based on the amount of uh opposition that they had heard John is this subject to Super majority or is this the case not subject no I don't believe this would be subject to a super majority anyway but uh Planning Commission actually approved it and so well if you're talking about the neighbor opposition uh the 20 requirement doesn't apply to abandonments but it's clearly not 20 percent of the property owners surrounding that are in opposition we approve the abandonment let's say we vote to approve the abandonment of Cox lane today does that in effect say that upon second reading that at that point forward the city would no longer be maintaining Cox Lane no we would continue to maintain it because it would still be a city street and those conditions are met and the new development is in place all right now we would be open for some public comments so if all of you that are here just one at a time come forward and if um to offer your comments I'm Dorothy hilsher single member district one uh I received notification from the Planning Commission regarding the

[4:47:59] request to abandon vacate reposition and reconstruct Cox Lane I called Sherry Bailey I emailed her and I sent in the notification the written notification I attended the public hearing on December 12th and express my concerns I'm here today to ask the city council to please carefully consider this project my main concern is a tremendous increase in the traffic load for the residential area and for the entire neighborhood except maybe Kansas and Iowa one official one official one city official told me that between 3500 and 5 000 Vehicles travel Cox Lane daily the traffic that traffic arriving East from Ben ficklin would if Cox Lane is reconfigured as proposed empty into an intersection of Foster Road and Parkview some Vehicles would turn left to proceed to Loop 306 or Sunset Boulevard some Perhaps Perhaps the majority would proceed down Park View to YMCA turn left and cut across to Sunset especially when Trinity Lutheran School is in session and has reduced speed zones some Vehicles some of the vehicles from Cox Lane would travel to the senior care center that's being planned at the intersection of Parkview and YMCA it's my understanding that Park us Parkview was planned and built as a minor collector for traffic which I didn't know until recently Parkview is a residential neighborhood with kids riding bikes playing basketball in the streets walking their pets talking to their neighbors the addition of traffic

[4:50:04] would greatly stop that or or lessen it no one was told by any realtor or city official that the very flavor of the street would be changed the residents and Property Owners did not know to look at the city GIS maps to try to figure out what would become of this beautiful neighborhood most of us knew about the issues when it rained which are crazy all of us knew this was a middle-class neighborhood mostly with three bedroom two bath houses and we invested our time and resources because the entire Capitol Heights area was Secure homie and affordable I noticed on the San Angelo website that the mission statement is to be the Texas Standard for opportunity prosperity and quality of life surely this project can be reworked or even scrapped to save this beautiful neighborhood thank you for your time thank you very much thank you for your patience going through the two and a half hours or three hours you've been waiting to speak so thank you hi my name is Melissa rodicus I'm in single member district one and I live on the corner of Parkview and Foster Road at 1601. and I received the notification of the public hearing on December 12th but I couldn't be there due to work I didn't understand the maps and the hash marked areas well enough to Fathom what this proposal would do to my residents I tried to call the number listed and I never got an answer the voicemail message did not belong to the person

[4:52:06] listed on the letter so I never left a message right now when it rains the water washes up so far in my yard which is bordering Foster Road that I've had to haul in dirt and rocks to keep my tree roots from floating away the water flows down faster to the red arroya but the drainage isn't adequate to keep it from building up and washing into my yard and since then I found out that the red arroya in that part is private property so there's tree roots trash everything blocking the drainage if I can only imagine what dangerous situation might occur if a tremendous increase in traffic occurs it is a traffic accident waiting to be constructed and my house is in the crosshairs I have videos which I've sent to Mr Hebert the amount of rain water that's washing up into my yard every time it rains I'm telling you about this now and you might be surprised if you actually saw the videos it looks like Rapids going down the street and there's a stop sign in my yard the water comes up way past the stop sign the traffic on Cox Lane is substantial the noises bothersome but because of the 200 foot divider from Cox Lane to my house it's livable if this proposal is grounded approval and traffic increases the noise will become a huge issue and this is a stress I don't need I have an eight-year-old daughter and if this happens she won't even be able to ride her bike in the neighborhood anymore even getting out of our driveway in the morning to take her to school is going to become an issue with the traffic because I won't be able to get out of my driveway people would use Parkview as a way to go around to get to Shannon in the area of businesses

[4:54:08] and that way they could avoid Sunset Drive and The Trinity Lutheran School Zone so please reconsider this proposal please consider some other means to Route the traffic please don't destroy my street mayor Gunter manager Valenzuela and council members my name is Mary Wilson and I live at 1641 Parkview Street I've lived there for 36 years the reason my husband and I bought a home in Capitol Heights was because it was a nice residential area with no traffic and now I feel after living there for 36 years that this is going to change and it's not good for our neighborhood families in our neighborhood all the streets in Capitol Heights are not through streets there's not a through Street there um organs not Utah's not uh Wyoming's not Idaho's not parkview's not Kansas isn't Illinois isn't they all either end at YMCA drive or on Foster that neighborhood is those the people in our neighborhood walk every day they walk their dogs they walk with their kids they pull them in wagons or in strollers kids ride their bicycles they play in the street because we don't have the traffic issues there's cars parked on Parkview yes it's

[4:56:11] a wide street but there's cars parked on both sides of Parkview all during the day and night there's never not parked cars on there on Tuesdays the trash receptacles are in the street so that leaves two lanes available for traffic and it's just going to destroy our neighborhood I I know that surely there's got to be another option Sunset Which is less than 400 feet South of Park View is a five-lane thoroughfare two lanes East two lanes West and a center turning lane yes it has a school zone on it but if you travel that part of sunset you know it's there so I'm I'm asking to please reconsider there are multi-family dwellings only and Commercial businesses on Sunset in Capitol Heights there's nothing but single family dwellings so surely with the Builder and the city we can find another option than to go down one of the streets and especially Parkview thank you my name is Philip benge I live at 1714 Parkview Drive I moved there my wife and I moved there approximately 15 years ago one of the calling cards for that and we looked at a lot of houses when we moved

[4:58:14] to San Angelo a lot of them one of the calling cards for that neighborhood was a little very little traffic very little through traffic most of the traffic we saw belonged to people that lived in the area or people that were visiting people living in the area that was a that was a very important thing to us okay when I first became aware of this uh situation uh my first inclination was uh why not reroute from the eastern part of Cox Road that will still be in use down to Sunset Drive which is a major thoroughfare the way it sits right now with Cox Road and uh Foster Road running parallel there's an intersection there at uh Cox Road and sunset that's kind of a malfunction junction because uh if you come down to Cox Road and you want to turn right uh vehicle I drive has a pillar right there I can't see any where anything's coming down Foster Road so yeah probably something needs to be done about that intersection I'll agree but I just I I look at the map and I think drop this down right there well I have to be further down here that's where that's where it can intersect with uh Sunset Drive uh I took some measurements curb to curb curb top to curb top uh

[5:00:20] Sunset Drive is 65 feet wide Parkview is 48 feet wide 65. Sunset Drive is 65 65 feet wide Park View is 48 feet what 48 or 49 and 49 feet wide uh there's a big difference there when you start considering a big flow of traffic because there are no cars parked on Sunset Drive on the on the curbs there's going to be cars parked on the curbs on ignore that red thing that you obviously haven't been up there three minutes so I'm sorry it's buzzing you so if you can continue maybe it was just just me or sorry it just is on its own little buzzer that's fine but I just uh I look at that fact that it it's a wider street it's made to handle heavy traffic it's a commercial it's commercially zoned you're talking about putting heavier traffic in a neighborhood it's not it's not designed to handle it okay uh people park at the curb because uh we have visitors you know we have two vehicles that park in the driveway and then we have visitors they park it at the side of the street so if you have visitors and that that takes up part of that 49-foot area and then you're trying to put traffic to and from if you if you come down make that make that a major thoroughfare there that's uh I think it's just uh more problems in the future okay

[5:02:25] yes Tommy just for clarification people are talking about bringing possibly off of the East part of Cox down to the intersection of Sunset there um the developer does not own probably the first 75 yards so that's the issue right now if they were ever able to acquire that little section there that might change some things but right now that's not an option that isn't included in a thorough thorough I can never say that word a little plan okay but that's what you're saying hello my name is Sabrina Lewis I live at 1813 Parkview Drive um and I'm completely opposed to this rerouting of traffic through our neighborhood neighborhood onto our street um 13 years ago we purchased our home on Parkview and in that neighborhood specifically because it was quiet um it was like my little Hometown that I grew up in I can let my kids you know safely walk to their friends houses and ride their bikes you know you go down the street every day and there are families out riding bikes running walking their dogs and playing in the streets and and um we're all we all feel safe because all the traffic we get get through there is people that live there so we're all aware and cautious of the children playing um this will disappear if traffic is rerouted onto our street um yes Cox Lane is a kind of a grappy little dangerous road however I think there's got to be a different solution you know

[5:04:29] because if drivers you know he pointed out that there was rail damage from cars if drivers can't see the curve that's lit up by light saying hey slow down you know what how are they going to see our kids in our street playing thank you thank you for their public comment hi I'm Brandi Beal 1605 Parkview single district one and I commend you guys um because this is a very long day and I haven't seen any of you taking bites of crackers or anything through Eddie to grapes so I I apologize I'm a little shaky but by this time and this late hour and I really appreciate that you guys do this several times a month I want you to Recon to re to carefully consider this proposal for several reasons one is the water damage or water drainage I drive a high clearance sport utility vehicle but yet the water during rain Rises to the level of my undercarriage don't hear too much about this because all of us residents of Capitol Heights we have the opportunity to turn down our streets and go the other direction to Nevada and YMCA and we know to avoid Foster at all costs whenever it's raining the National Weather Service advises that all vehicles turn around don't drown

[5:06:33] for safety precautions if water levels are above six inches water levels above six inches reach the bottom of most Passenger cars causing loss of control and possible stalling we are asking that 1700 cars just by that study that was completed traveled down this more than six inches of water and that says it stands currently whenever the pasture and the roads that are in proposal are created those lands are currently at a higher elevation currently one of the reasons why Foster does have the drainage that or the drainage issues is because all water flows from YMCA down the perspective Capitol Heights streets where it collects at Foster then runs towards the red Arroyo it's going to go the opposite direction the traffic study that was mentioned today was done only after the Planning Commission passed on five to two it was done for less than 48 hours I do not know if Tuesday midday to Thursday at 7 30 a.m is a proper study I think that a traffic impact study needs to be done I apologize for those buzzers don't let it bother you okay okay there's a new Senior Living Center in development currently going along Sunset Road that development is going to further increase traffic that is used from sunset going down Cox to connect to 87. there will be staff workers using that

[5:08:39] in addition as it was mentioned everyone that uses that pass as a way to get to Walmart since it was created 1700 Vehicles just by nature of that study use that as a shortcut daily I'm not opposed to the development of the land I welcome Neighbors in that property the thoroughfare that was presented may I borrow their screen are you the thorough flat thoroughfare plan John could you pull up that back up on this she wants to refer to something on the thorough flare thoroughfare plan there you go that one's better thank you so if I'm to understand correctly Parkview is destined to be a thoroughfare plan however on this map Sunset is listed as a thoroughfare Sunset would be the more appropriate thoroughfare to direct the majority of traffic that use this as a cut from Sunset to Highway 87. and you want to answer that because she's saying on this one it shows Sunset not Parkview as the thorough FAIR Plan Street or that both of them are included in the thoroughfare plans and so and I forget the exact designation but this dark blue color for Sunset is a higher level so it's either a major collector or it could be a minor arterial so it is designed to be a heavier volume of traffic Street versus The Collector which is really to get um traffic through a collector your designated as Parkview that's right

[5:10:41] Sunset as a major it's a more Major Street off the top of my head I don't remember if it's a major collector or a minor arterial it has fewer stop signs so you're saying that the chances are most people are going to go down to Sunset and take it or out to Loop 306 because it is a quicker faster method of transportation is that what we're seeing yes but I I don't think we're disputing that some of this traffic coming this way would end up coming through the neighborhood I think we think the majority would turn South on Foster to get either to the loop or to come this way on on Sunset I'm a little confused and um I hope you don't mind me inserting this at this point but there's been lots of different numbers thrown at us in terms of traffic count I think you referred to one a thousand cars and then 700 cars and then someone from planning said that there's 3 500 cars what's the difference between the 1700 and the 32 or 3 500 that um Community the community was communicated to in terms of traffic counts I'm not aware of any staff giving out numbers higher than these we as far as planning staff and I think that's true for public work staff as well we didn't have recent traffic counts in this area which is why they went out and did them but you can see here that if you can read those numbers it's 1309 so a little over a thousand cars coming east I'm sorry that's 1300 East westbound well it's about 1300 both directions but that's in each direction there's about 1300 cars going each way per day I would defer to Public Works on when the traffic counts were done but I believe they were done last week and you probably have information on when they're done because I think what they want to know is what hour of the day were they done so it's reflective of when they think the highest traffic might occur through the neighborhood yes and the counters were set out uh for

[5:12:47] basically three days you said it'll set them out on a Tuesday pulled them back up on a Thursday but their 24-hour counts on Wednesday so it was a 24-hour count on the day of Wednesday and so that's that's it and we we do depending on what study we're running for what particular thing we will we have a one-day study a three-day study and then a seven day study what we're looking at from especially if it's if we're around high high traffic areas um you know Sherwood ways and we have schools and things like that where we see seasonal traffic or we see daily we'll see daily traffic patterns change over the weekends and things like this this rule more rural setting out here uh and and I know everybody's talking about 3 000 cars a day and 3 500 cars a day being a lot but for most roadways and now for Cox uh built to the built to basically a County Road standard which is what that was that was just paved and and we took over maintenance at one point in time um that is a decent amount of traffic for that narrower Road on basically a 25 foot road that is I mean it's a lot of traffic we start getting into we start talking into collectors things like that 3 000 cars a days we see a lot more again we see a lot more traffic than that on most most collectors whether it's minor or major collectors you're saying today based off of the standard of Cox Lane um the Westbound and the southbound having 37 27. yeah 3 000. is a lot on a county basically basically on that because that exists today as it is today the way the way the the way it was constructed originally and the width of the road that's substantial traffic on the road of that width how narrow it is and uh and again it was built like I said to a County Road standard note that I don't I couldn't even imagine how long it's been there so

[5:14:50] yes Karen please um I think there are probably facts and figures rather than than some of the terms that we're using I would be interested in knowing what kind of vehicle volumes you expect on minor collectors versus arterials in our when we start talking arterials we start talking about the Sherwood Way of the loop some of those major roads like that Knickerbockers some of those are our arterial streets we we talk about um numbers in the we we actually talk more numbers in hours there than we do actually average daily traffic um we'll we'll see numbers on Bryant nickerbacker approach 15 000 an hour and so when we're talking about 3 000 in a day um you know those are those are really minor numbers um when we start talking about traffic flows and especially on a collector most collectors that we see in other parts of town will see anywhere from five to ten thousand and and from The Collector status I just wondered if there were definitions that went with those designations that would help us understand a little bit better so it's not well it's a reality now well then the majority of the designations due to to how how the width and how many lanes that they're built to and how and what kind of traffic loading you're trying to put on and how much loading you're trying to put on the road I apologize for us interjecting ourselves into your comments please continue thank you very much it's been mentioned that both of these curves at Cox and also the intersection a mess I believe is what it was referred to both of those qualities will now exist at the Park View

[5:16:53] the future Parkview and Foster intersection and whether they're turning to go down or through Parkview that is still our neighborhood that is that is still where our children are playing I purchased my home 18 years ago to raise my daughter in a safe neighborhood and now I don't know if my grandchildren will be able to play my front yard I thank you for for your consideration and I beg of you to please not pass this proposal as it's listed further public comment real quick before I proceed I'm Hillary Bucher I represent Dorado Construction Group and Cox property development I will go back and address the ladies comments so even this picture right here shows this right here is the intersection of Cox Lane and Sunset and Foster currently you can see this orange line up here so that would be our current property line we do not own from that property line down to the sunset is that the property line is here right now Cox Lane yeah so this is Cox Lane yeah she said it is it's okay okay yeah I have to go bigger hold on so we the Cox property development currently owns to here the intersection of Sunset is here and this is Park View up here yes everybody should be addressing

[5:18:59] comments to city council and not having necessarily a dialogue between the speaker and the audience well we'll direct you then to show us where your property no Europe show us where you own property currently Cox property development owns the property that is located here all of that yes because I thought there was a portion in there that we were indicated was not by the same owner of that orange below this orange line so from here down this is a separate property owner so you basically well you're not quite at Sunset yes ma'am that's correct okay so I would like to clarify a couple points to the council thank you again for being here again Hillary Bucher with representing Dorado Construction Group we are here today asking for abandonment of Cox Lane and simply put that was a request by staff the discussions that we're having about connecting a master thoroughfare plan in my mind are a separate discussion which can be had at a later date what we are asking is to remove the duplicity of having roads side by side which the city has requested the developer to do if we were to come forward today with a plat and leave Cox as it is again that road could still punch through with a plot today we wanted to get this Council on board with our development get going in the right direction this was just our first step we have a long road ahead of us to even get any dirt moving on the ground we still have annexation we still have zoning we still have planning preliminary and final so these are this is a long road this is not happening tomorrow and City staff has been great to work with they've helped us through this process again we've been working with them for about a year on pros and cons of going different directions and how to make this work as the best for the city and our development

[5:21:02] um I know there was some comments about connecting down to Sunset again I want to make that point we cannot currently connect down to sunset in the proposed preliminary drawing that we have shown again that's not anything that has to be done there's still processes to make it all the way through there but we do show this thoroughfare and it actually is straightened up in our drawing so someday you will be able to turn here come down and do this that is not something we can do today but it will be something in the future would that be done at the same time though as again because we know the abandonment is not something that's going to happen immediately it could be five years it could be three years the cosplaying thing so whatever decisions made today no one's going to feel the impact of that for several years probably maybe two maybe more but what you can do when you lay out your plaid is to show an alternative route that would prevent the negatives that some of our homeowners are concerned about today because you can divert some of that traffic from the park view traffic area that they're concerned about down to what would be the uh Frontage Road right correct yes ma'am so again we're showing this as a solid road today so it's our proposed road again we have to get that approved through plotting that is not something we are guaranteed today but we also through staff's suggestion we have showed the dashed Road connecting down so again someday that Dash Road will extend all the way down to the loop so you'll have multiple options when you get to Cox and what I'm calling the extension of adobe because if you look it will do that so you could go down to the loop you could go to Sunset you could go to Foster there as the land development continues in this area you will see multiple ways to get around that's an important conversation because our folks today who are complaining have this sense that the only option that is presented is a Park

[5:23:04] View option if Cox is abandoned but what you're saying is you're the city has asked you to abandon Cox Lane in your development and in your future plat you would reflect alternative routes that would essentially create a really great alternative to using Foster Road and going through the neighborhood yes ma'am yes ma'am and I'd like to speak a little bit on the drainage aspect just so everyone knows I know Karen misses he brought this up this property currently drains toward the Concho River so if we're looking at someone standing up here where is current the Cox curve is this property drains this way and as you can see through our planning there is a detention Pond currently planned so we have looked at the drainage in fact we have talked with engineering and we will probably through making these Cuts right here we will probably lessen the impact on Foster as we divert it away and pull it down towards the low point in our development so hopefully they will see a benefit to their drainage in that area as we develop I know that you come from a planning world and so what you share with us today is really important because you understand the concerns of the neighborhood which are very valid and yes ma'am I think we've listened and understand the the pain that they think they're going to fill but if in the Platte development we work with you all to provide those alternative routes and create the detention or retention I'm never sure which one it is you will take that flooding away from that Foster Road flooding that today creates such problems for us hopefully less than it I don't know that we can completely result hopefully lessen the impact yes ma'am those are important statements because up until now we didn't see an alternative to the Foster Road Park View traffic scenario yes ma'am no there are there are multiple options and we

[5:25:06] continue to work through your all anybody is welcome to stop by our office we are at 424 South chadburn and I'm there most times you're welcome to give me a call if you'd like to discuss options or you have thoughts we are always open to them we want this to be profitable for everyone and we want this to be a great addition to the city so we want you to be a good neighbor to the existing neighbors yes ma'am and not be somebody that they resent and hate and if you can that you have shared this with us as gives us some confidence that we can take care of what the city needs but also make sure we take really good care of our neighborhoods and they don't have to fear Their Fear Hillary would you be willing to to visit with any of these folks that would want to visit with you about what what about this what about that is that something you would be willing to do yes yeah again coming from my planning background I'd be happy to speak with anyone if anyone wants to meet me on site or at my office or give me a call you're welcome to catch me after or most everyone here has a cell phone number a way to get a hold of me so I'd be happy to meet with anyone I don't know that we can address every concern until we kind of get into the process of the planning and really get to those development processes but we will try to at least keep our eyes and ears open as we go forward what you've shared is really encouraging and I think it solves many of the problems and we realize again none of this is tomorrow but nothing will happen tomorrow that packed our neighborhoods because we'll have to approve your plot that would reflect those additional roadways yes ma'am that will not create a neighborhood problem well and I think planning staff really helped out with the conditions they put on there again I have a different background but I think those are very appropriate so that we don't get stuck somewhere down the road and have issues so they did a great job with the conditions yes you may come forward and I've broken all the rules today so let's just keep on breaking them yeah I just want to say the one thing in

[5:27:11] regarding to the flooding that she was just discussing it's not coming from the pasture down that embankment it's coming from the loop all the way down Foster Road so it's not the pasture that's the problem and the flooding coming down that way it's actually the street Foster all the way down from the DPS office floods all the way down and as it gets to my house it gets worse and I invite any of you to come out and see it the next time it rains come to the microphone tell us who you are I'm Babs binge and I live in whatever District they said we're in um I don't know that would be one I think we're going to give you one my iOS or ISO or not sure about that but you're in one I was just going to ask could they not do imminent domain for that section that needs to be pulled into sunset immunot domain is very seldom used these days it gets very politically and very expensive to claim Emmett domain and I think what we're looking for is the bigger plan the broader plan and a plan that addresses all the issues of diverting traffic creating alternative routes addressing the flooding issue all the negatives that have been brought up the hope would be I know Hope's not a good word but the I the ideal plan would alleviate the biggest issues that are brought up today and divert the traffic give them a better flow and not create a neighborhood that you didn't buy into that would be something we're asking our planning department to do and it sounds like Hillary says we can accomplish that no one wants to ruin a neighborhood no one wants to change a neighborhood from a family friendly to a high traffic pattern and based off of what Hillary just showed us I think we can accomplish

[5:29:14] that and it sounds like the developer is very willing to work to make that happen which will be more expensive than if they chose not to but the requirements are there and we can enforce those requirements and I think it will make it healthy address the issues that you're all very concerned about and I hear you thank you thank you Jerry Wilson 1641 Parkview Drive I have a couple of questions for staff really one uh you mentioned that Cox Lane was made to County Road standards Cox Lane intersects with Ben ficklin Road behind the strap store is that also a County Road we'll let the county own it because it's not in great condition so we're going to ahead and give that to the county today okay so that's the same type of road as Cox Lane is which is right behind the convenience store trucks and everything um another question I would have is is there consideration being given to connecting coxley or going from Cox Lane up to Jackson Street doesn't sound like it I haven't heard Jackson Street brought up yet today and again because we don't have I think the hardest part of this is because we don't have and didn't have until Hillary came forward and I appreciate her coming forward and sharing what the developers ideal would be for that property which until she presented it it was sort of um I mean it it was gay it's an eye-opening story that she's presenting and or plan I shouldn't say story plan in terms of what they think they can do with that property and it sounds positive to me and it sounds like it's protective of a neighborhood which is something I'm very um I think is very important

[5:31:18] that question about Jackson actually it didn't come up because it's not part of the what we're talking about today but as Hillary mentioned this is that north-south piece that they're going to be doing uh it will ultimately is planned to connect up to Adobe which does connect up to Jackson and so again as you mentioned we we typically the city doesn't build roads in most cases it's the developers that build the roads as development happens so until this property up here develops we won't have that connection but it is a planned future connection that would also provide uh you know all the way up to uh to Jackson did that answer your question sir okay thank you especially he did have one other question I'll answer that if um well it's not actually on here but a number of these properties on Cox Lane have developed recently and as part of each of those developments we have gotten an additional right-of-way and those property owners have had to expand the roadway so it's a little bit Hit or Miss but over time as all of those properties along there develop they will be responsible for expanding that part of Cox that will remain so you know 30 years from now you should have a Cox Lane and with this new development all of it will be up to City standard thank you further public comment yes I'm allowing I broke the rules way early today so I just wanted to make a make sure I was understanding to clarify she said repeatedly that this developer does not own the land that is at Sunset so then immediately after that said that that will be developed in the future but she cannot commit to that because

[5:33:21] she said that they do not own that land so which is it I think the answer to that was they can only develop what's on their piece but because it's in the city's plans that this road also connect over when and if this property ever develops they will be obligated to build those roads as are shown on our thoroughfare plan so it it might not happen tomorrow it might be 10 years or more but whenever this property develops they will have to continue those roads as shown on our map thank you continue conversation public comment Rue but I'll give you a last one two three all right we've heard lots of good public comment we've heard some good input from the developer and now I think we're going to look for a motion and I'm going to ask for a city council member to make a motion for approval or denial I move Harry has moved it do I have a second by Harry we'll take a vote all those in favor of the presentation of abandoning Cox Lane please say I I passes four to one moving on to item e Oh I thought you said no well passes four to two then three to two no no mayor three gotta have four this old man's got to go make a trip we take a five minute break well as soon as we're through voting you may but I understand we have to have we're going to get clarification on this you need four to pass okay so we're to three to two so it does not pass and so what happens now

[5:35:24] you can I one option would be to table it until you have a full Council to see how the others would vote or no okay after a vote never mind well we should have been notified of that before we did this that we needed four to one that's always the case you always need four to pass any ordinance can make another motion if anybody wants to change their vote but we take a break and we'll talk about what our options are with that we can take a break and see how we feel and come back a is bring up the opportunity at the next meeting for reconsideration of this issue when we have more council members present so I'm going to ask that we bring up a reconsideration of this item at a future meeting hopefully next meeting is that possible at the next meeting okay do I need to vote on that um no I mean if you're just asking to put the reconsideration on the agenda you just you're directing us to put it on the agenda all right we'll do that we need to Tommy's got to leave so we have other people that we need to get things uh approved so he first reading the public hearing of an ordinance for z22-2-3 to rezone properties from the single family residential zoning District to the two family residential zoning District being 2.129 Acres look located at the northwest corner Travis Street and East 30th Street John you're on John James director of planning and development services this is Travis Street here and 30th you can see the subject property there is proposed for

[5:37:26] rezoning for duplexes you can see that there's an RS3 zoning just to the north and another rs2 existing just to the north a little bit and then there's a large manufactured housing subdivision and then of course right off the screen here is some commercial strips so this is kind of in a mixed area it's largely single family but there is a mixture of some others and this property is adjacent to an old school site that's I think a head start now and so it makes sense for that higher density development couple of pictures this is looking from from Travis Street we did send out our notices to the surrounding Property Owners we did receive two opposed that you see there I think they didn't comment anything specific just uh check the box that said opposed but this is something that does come recommended by staff and the Planning Commission it is consistent with the comprehensive plans designation of neighborhood as I mentioned it's compatible with the surrounding area where there is a mixture of it not just single-family homes but others and this is an area where there is a need for affordable housing and this duplexes will um I think that's the key issue a need for affordable housing and this allows it and it's just duplexes so it is just duplexes and it is an infill Development Area that has not developed uh in recent in the recent past so it's a way to get some development on a property that's been sitting vacant as I mentioned staff does recommend approval and the Planning Commission unanimously also recommended approval at their December meeting I'd be happy to answer any questions questions from Council do I have a motion for approval so moved by Harry seconded by three other people and will any public comment seeing none will take a vote all those in favor say aye motion passes four to one I mean four I mean five to zero losing count first reading of public hearing of

[5:39:32] ordinances on the following cases of her property being 0.58 Acres located at 3707 North Chadbourne Street one cp22-06 a request for approval of an amendment to the comprehensive plan changing the future land use from neighborhood to Commercial and to z22-2-4 request for approval of a rezoning from the single-family residential zoning District to The General commercial zoning District John you're on thank you again this this area along chadburn at some time in the past they just drew a line across there saying that's going to be commercial it happened to split this subject property and so the property owner is simply asking for the rear Potter of their property to be Zone commercial just like the front part there and the back part is commercial as well well it's it's vacant but the property owner that has the front part wants to expand onto the back part and so with it being zoned residential on this back he can't do that now and so this would extend it to the full extent of their their property what's to the left and right well this is mostly single-family homes I don't know if it shows better on this map you can see that there's kind of a large open space here so the homes are quite a quite a ways away from the that part of the property and the property owner does understand just under our normal development rules if you're building commercial development adjacent to single family zoning you have to have screening fences and those sorts of things so they will have to put up a fence and in certain cases depending on what they're doing keep commercial activity back a distance away from those Residential Properties uh we did send our notifications out we did not receive any in opposition uh you can see that this property immediately behind uh was one that was in in favor and as you can see it's an odd shaped property uh that looks kind of like that it is Zone single family and there's a

[5:41:35] house up there but they own all of that which also creates kind of an additional buffer uh from all of these other homes that are that are close by so none of the homes are immediately adjacent to this commercial and if I didn't say we did have zero in opposition um I think I've already covered all of that staff does recommend approval this is an amendment to the comprehensive plan as well as the rezoning and then the Planning Commission unanimously recommended both approvals any questions from Council may I have a motion for approval so I'll move by Karen second by Harry any public comment see no public comment we will take a vote all those in favor say aye aye um motion passes 5-0 I'm gonna thank you John I'm going to ask that item G be moved to the next meeting and that we follow um uh do the follow-up and administrative issues today so be consider proving various board nominations Civic events Advisory Board Laurie decello smd3 to first term ending December 2024 Civil Service Commission Billy DeWitt to first term ending January 2025 design and historic review commission Kenna Archer to an unexpired term ending September 2023 Port Concho Museum board George Bally smd2 Monty Stanley smd4ja First full term Tracy Simpson the mayor Tommy Earnest smd1 to the first term Donald Barnhart mayor and Yuki kuna Yuki smd3 to second term Jason Pierce smd-1 to a third term all ending January 2025 that's a lot of people for a board so and then Parks and Recreation Advisory Board Susie Marshall smd3 and Alicia also all shanky no that's not right but I can't pronounce it differently so that's smd4 it's a first

[5:43:38] term ending December 2024 and the Planning Commission Trinidad Gary smd4 to her first full term and Candy pull smd3 to a first term Travis tribling SMD 5 to the third term all ending January 2025 tax increment reinvestment Zone John Mark Hogue smd1 is chairman of the board for a one-year term ending January 2024 the Zoning Board of adjustment Terry Jackson smd3 to an unexpired ending January 2024 Dietrich Tillis smd4 and Julie Everson mayor Pro tem alternate two to a first full-term Bobby Guerrera smd2 and Stephanie Hamby alternative one mayor Pro tem to third term all ending January 2025 may I have a motion to approve all of those I moved and that's a double move we do have a double second double second double any public comment with none we'll take a vote all of those in favor uh please say aye aye motion passes five zero consider moving the May 2nd meeting to Thursday May 4th I think that's good I guess I'm not sure why but I guess that's good consider moving the May 16th meeting to Wednesday May 17th to include canvassing of the May 6th election results so we don't have to do anything on those right now right because it just says announcements and consideration do we just need to approve it next meeting or we can any opposition to changing those dates I see none so yeah and then because we won't have a quorum we won't go into executive sessions that correct so item G will move to the next meeting and we'll have a do we need to have um Council get together to do anything on item a into closed session before the next meeting

[5:45:39] um no it was just an update on information that we were asked to provide so you don't have to have action today then the only action I need is adjournment do I have one so move by Tommy seconded by Larry any opposed motion passes five zero boy that went fast

Captured 2026-07-26 · source: youtube.com/watch?v=x7FsFPqY1R8